Question about improving groove

[awalsh]

Hello!
I submitted a cue for a gothic Americana instrumental listing and the screener said I need to work on my groove.
Are there any go to training courses that anyone can recommend? I think a course of study might be better for me than random YouTube videos, but I don’t know. I was very surprised to get that feedback but it’s definitely a great opportunity for learning.
Thanks for any suggestions.
Alex

[jessecarrigan]

Maybe post the track and the feedback so we can hear what the issue was?

[awalsh]

Hi,
here's the feedback link: https://www.taxi.com/members/e7iLTuzWT7 ... V57WNWuRlg

and the track is in my track listing. its called ride the river and the only one there. is that easily accessible? i dont see a way to make a link. i checked public.

[cosmicdolphin]

I submitted a cue for a gothic Americana instrumental listing and the screener said I need to work on my groove.

Actually that's not what the Screener said

" I'd suggest less harmonica work and more focus on the groove/creating a dark mood/energy."

I haven't listened to your track because I can't be arsed to go hunting for it so always post a link if you want people to listen as well as the Ref Tracks . But to me the feedback is saying that drums/percussion need to be more prominent in the mix. Not that the groove itself is sub standard..it just needs to step forward.

Mark

[awalsh]

Hi,
here's the feedback link: https://www.taxi.com/members/e7iLTuzWT7 ... V57WNWuRlg

edited: here's a soundcloud link https://soundcloud.com/alex-walsh-music ... UyRljgDJWH

[AlanHall]

Overall, I think a good effort and a fair critique. I'd be encouraged to get that critique

In the last few seconds you give us a completely different mood with the harmonica becoming a rhythm instrument. I would have liked to hear that kind of energy come in earlier; maybe by the :40 mark. A quicker build to an energy level with more attention to the pulse of the tune. IMHO you added layers of stringed instruments but gave the drum elements only a second thought. Overall nice playing, but too slow on the building of the track's "arc". And yes, I had to keep turning up my monitor level to hear the new layers as they entered. Low volume overall, and not mixed to make each entrance excite the ear.

Thanks for sharing, Alex! Looking forward to hearing more of your stuff!

[awalsh]

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback and the suggestions. I think your suggestions will help with this particular track.

I'm still wondering if I'm not understanding something fundamental about groove and how all of the instruments of a track interact with each other--am I reading too much into this? I've studied a little bit about drum grooves but not how an entire arrangement contributes. Would be interested to know if there are any online classes or something that people can recommend?

[AlanHall]

I wouldn't try to read too much into the screener's use of the word groove. Maybe someone can comment about a specific connotation, but I'd take it to mean that all the elements of the track need to support the notion of continuously/incrementally moving forward; percussion is but one part of that "whole". All the instruments together should bring momentum to the piece.

[AudiniAudio]

To my way of thinking groove has to do with the way a rhythm section physically plays music. Your arm has to swing through the air before it can hit the snare and if you just played some other part of the kit an eighth note or a sixteenth note earlier, then your arm is racing to reach the snare on time. Since we're not robots, it changes the angle, the attack, and can affect the timing.

Though African Bata drummers or any other great percussionist CAN play everything on the beat especially when the music is slow, it's actually undesirable. So they fine tune their ears, their minds, and their bodies to listen closer and decide who will be very slightly ahead of the beat, who on the beat, and who behind if any. It allows the attack of each instrument to cut through which is important so we can all enjoy hearing the different instruments and not just some massive spike assailing our eardrums. We don't want the attacks to all combine and reinforce each other.

What groove feels good to you is a personal preference. James Brown, the godfather of groove, used to select different drummers for different tunes and usually had 2 drummers on stage for that purpose because they each played with a different kind of groove.

I used to study bass with Joel DiBartolo, now deceased. He was the bass player on the tonight show with Johnny Carson for 20 years and has toured all over with Doc Severensen. Not that I play bass like Joel or anyone else you'd like to hear but he said it used to be the case that it didn't matter that much what note you were playing on upright bass before the invention of amplifiers because no one could really hear a definite pitch anyway: just a satisfying thump, thump, thump. But in order to play that thump on time, the bass players actually had to attack those long, thick, loose strings ahead of the beat in order for them to finally speak on time with the rest of the band.

Some bass players were kinda bumbed out after the invention of amplification because they had to start playing the notes in tune or the right notes at all. One of the after effects of playing bass before amps was that bass players developed ears for hearing and hands for playing slightly ahead of the beat, so though they didn't have to play so far ahead as before, they were already in the habit and decided they liked it. Either they liked it or other people in the band requested that they play ahead of the beat like before.

So do you like your bass drum, bass guitar, and snare drum all ahead of the beat? Probably not, but you have to make some decisions about where and if you're going to do that especially if you're programming music by hand and care about the groove.

Maybe others can chime in here and state their preferences for different styles. Perhaps you have the bass drum and snare keeping a solid rhythm but only on beats 1,2,3 and 4. Anytime they play the off beats, you could have them pushing ahead a little if you're going for a driving rhythm. But you let the bass guitar play ahead of the beat all the time by a consistent amount or a more human, slightly variable amount.

Another issue I learned from a book I had on groove is that with human players in rhythm sections, the middle of phrases get ever so slightly rushed especially live. And it feels good and right. Nothing wrong with it. Seems too fiddly to me to try to replicate that with midi. Sorry I don't remember the book.

Another book I read was talking about the great jazz vocalists tended to often lay way back on note entrances to sound relaxed and cool as if they don't have a care in the world. So maybe let your melody play behind the beat if the bass is playing ahead. So everything isn't jammed together in the pocket.

Then there's the stuff about 16th note swing and how it's hard to do that at faster tempos so then you switch to a triplet swing, except that you can place your swing anywhere in between a 16th note and a triplet which can't be notated. Where you prefer to place your swing is a matter of personal choice.

Classical music often plays the occasional triplet showing up in duple meter a little slower than notated (not talking about swung triplets in this case).

When assigning samples to be triggered for the snare for example, if you only have one sample, even if you adjust the velocities, people's ears will become fatigued because no one is able to consistently get the snare to have the exact same overtones every time they hit it. So, it's a good idea to cycle between several samples of the exact same snare (at least 3 different samples) to help it sound more human. EDM and Hip Hop probably don't need to care about this issue but everything else probably does.

That's all I got. Hope it helps.

[superblonde]

My ear is more concerned with the non-harmonic tone at the first phrase ending which ends up sounding like bad playing or out-of-key, and is repeated every time the phrase repeats. It might be a strange suspension but if it's a suspension it should resolve immediately downwards.