Question for hiring Composer / Performer

[eaglerockhills]

If i hire someone to write an instrumental cue or film score for a Taxi submission. I give them examples of what I'm looking for, but I don't actually play anything on the track. 

Does that count as a co-write?

Since I paid for it do I own the recording? 

What kind of agreement would I need for them to sign?

[hummingbird]

If i hire someone to write an instrumental cue or film score for a Taxi submission. I give them examples of what I'm looking for, but I don't actually play anything on the track. 

Does that count as a co-write?

Since I paid for it do I own the recording? 

What kind of agreement would I need for them to sign?

It's actually up to you and the other person what kind of agreement you want to have.

If you don't have the money to pay them up front for their contribution, then you can choose to do a co-write, in that case you want a collaboration agreement with shares spelled out (they should belong to a PRO and that info should be included in the agreement). They need to agree to respond immediately if a deal is offered and get the paperwork signed right away. You should also ensure that both of you have copies of the final master to submit as needed, perhaps stems as well. In this case you both own the Master and no agreement can be made for the licensing of the track without both of you signing the agreement.

If you'd rather own the Master then they need to sign a Work for Hire agreement that says they have been compensated for their contribution to the composition and the final recording and have no ownership of any part of it. Then the Master recording belongs to you and you can pitch it as you wish.

Caveat - I am not an entertainment lawyer, the above is just MHO.

HTH

[AlanHall]

If i hire someone to write an instrumental cue or film score for a Taxi submission. I give them examples of what I'm looking for, but I don't actually play anything on the track. 

Does that count as a co-write?

Since I paid for it do I own the recording? 

What kind of agreement would I need for them to sign?

It sounds a lot like you are describing what libraries that offer exclusive contracts do. Pay upfront to assume all rights to the music. If you can find someone to write license-able cues for less than what a library would pay, please share!

[Telefunkin]

You want to hire someone to write Taxi submissions for you? Where's the fun in that? You've got good advice from Hummingbird, and something to think about from Alan.

IMHO (not legal advice) if you didn't contribute anything to the writing you're not a co-writer and should not be entitled to any of the writer's share, so its not a co-write. If others made contributions to your work without a fee then its a co-write. If you paid for contributions then its a work for hire. If you paid for the whole thing then I suppose its still a WFH but what's the point, and would you then be claiming that you are the writer? That doesn't seem right to me.

As a warning, you could be setting yourself up for a nightmare too. Lets imagine your submission attracts a library offer. They'll then want a wav file, probably some alt mixes, probably some cut-down versions (could be 1m, 30s, 20s, 15s, 10s), probably a sting or two, maybe some grouped instrument stems, or maybe all individual instrument stems. They could want 44.1kHz or 48kHz, 16-bit or 24 bit. Of course, you don't know any of this upfront. You could cover yourself by asking the WFH writer to provide all options you can think of, but even then the library might ask you for edits - that happens a lot! You might be able to comply if you can load the session in your own DAW (assuming you have the same DAW as the writer used and have the same real and virtual instruments plus the plugins, so you can rebuild the mixes - highly unlikely), but its almost inevitable that you'd have to go back to the writer for edits. What if the writer is not available or just not interested?

Furthermore, what if the library ask for more tracks like it? You'd miss the opportunity to get more tracks under contract, and besides, some libraries don't even want to sign single track, preferring batches of at least 5.

So what you really want is a composer who will write the track, make a broadcast worthy production of it that fits the listing, provide you an mp3, wav files in all possible variations for all possible alt mixes and cut-downs and stings, maybe the DAW session, and the metadata, and be willing to do some additional work should edits be required (even though the writer won't benefit any further from doing so). It'd also help if they'd be willing to repeat the trick, should the library want more tracks.

How much would you pay for all that work? Conversely, if you were the writer how much would you charge to do all of that, only to hand it all over along with all rights to your creation and no chance of any back-end royalties?

Of course, there's a chance that the track falls at the first fence and doesn't even get forwarded!

[Casey H]

Are you having them do the actual composing? I'm not sure I get this.

The typical work for hire scenario would be you have a rough recording of what you want-- could be the melody sung into a phone voice recorder, an guitar or keyboard recording with you showing singing the melody by singing do do do for the melody, etc. SOMETHING that you contributed, composition-wise. Also keep in mind that paying for every track to be done is very expensive, making it impossible to become profitable. I do a lot of it but decided I'm more interested in the fun of hearing the songs I wrote on TV than profit.

Tell us more about you and what you can do right now at home. Can you compose anything? What equipment do you have if any?

Best,
Casey

[eaglerockhills]

Thank you very much for the responses. I would be giving a rough draft idea, but that idea would need to be fleshed out with someone more versed in this style of music.

I do compose and write myself. I've got Logic and other DAWs and I do play instruments. But looking for someone better than me.

I would be PAYING them Money upfront in a "work for hire" agreement for them to bring in their expertise.

The thing I wonder is, where does it become a Co-write? Where is that line?

I would want to be fair being a musician / writer myself. But at the same time if I'm paying for it, where is that line drawn between WFH and a co-write?

I myself used to be in a work for hire situation, where anything I wrote with that music artist would be considered their songs solely, because I was getting paid upfront. I was fine with it.

I did have to go into the studio to perform play guitar and other instruments. There were changes to what we wrote originally, but I was paid for my time in the studio as well.

[Casey H]

There are no exact answers. It can be a full work for hire where you pay a fee and then own all rights. It can be a collaboration where the other party does their share and you split ownership 50/50. The other arrangement I've done sometimes is we made it a co-write but I also gave them a payment (smaller than full WFH) to compensate for them doing so much work while we still own it 50/50.

All possible ways of doing it can be in play. It's whatever you and the other party feel comfortable with.

If you want to drop my a PM and show me a rough track for what you want produced and how you envision it, maybe I could offer some advice.

Best,
Casey

[eaglerockhills]

Thank you! I agree, could be a case by case situation. I'll PM you.

There are no exact answers. It can be a full work for hire where you pay a fee and then own all rights. It can be a collaboration where the other party does their share and you split ownership 50/50. The other arrangement I've done sometimes is we made it a co-write but I also gave them a payment (smaller than full WFH) to compensate for them doing so much work while we still own it 50/50.

All possible ways of doing it can be in play. It's whatever you and the other party feel comfortable with.

If you want to drop my a PM and show me a rough track for what you want produced and how you envision it, maybe I could offer some advice.

Best,
Casey

[cosmicdolphin]

I do compose and write myself. I've got Logic and other DAWs and I do play instruments. But looking for someone better than me.

In that case I would say spend the money on training to get better yourself.

Aside from all the great practical points Graham outlined above, you need hundreds of cues in libraries to get anywhere and IMHO you just wouldn't get any ROI as only a small % of your catalogue will ever get used.

My current placement rate is around 14% on a sample size of 450 signed cues but the average cue earns less than you'd likely have to pay someone else to make it , so even if you had 100% placement rate you'd still be losing a ton of money.

Mark

[hummingbird]

Thank you very much for the responses. I would be giving a rough draft idea, but that idea would need to be fleshed out with someone more versed in this style of music.

I do compose and write myself. I've got Logic and other DAWs and I do play instruments. But looking for someone better than me.

I would be PAYING them Money upfront in a "work for hire" agreement for them to bring in their expertise.

The thing I wonder is, where does it become a Co-write? Where is that line?

I would want to be fair being a musician / writer myself. But at the same time if I'm paying for it, where is that line drawn between WFH and a co-write?

I myself used to be in a work for hire situation, where anything I wrote with that music artist would be considered their songs solely, because I was getting paid upfront. I was fine with it.

I did have to go into the studio to perform play guitar and other instruments. There were changes to what we wrote originally, but I was paid for my time in the studio as well.

There is no 'line', it's totally up to you.

In this situation I'd suggest co-writing rather than work for hire. I agree with the suggestion above re investing in learning your craft. There are many many good free youtube channels on composition and production. There are also courses through Cinematic Composing, Evenant or Thinkspace that might assist you. You could also hire a good producer to tutor you in producing broadcast quality. That's assuming you are composing cues effectively (that's an art in itself).

To be honest I learned a great deal right here on this forum, by listening to tracks in Peer to Peer and reading the comments on them, posting my own and asking for feedback / help, and from the screeners who had to listen to my fledgling compositions. It took me three years of trying to get my first forward because I had to a) have good VSTs or record cleanly, b) understand how to use those good VSTs (expression, humanizing), c) compose effectively (melody, harmony, counterpoint, development, edit points, etc), d) produce a good clean mix that would be considered broadcast quality.