Re: another orchestral effort

dgolding · Post by **dgolding** » Tue May 08, 2007 3:10 pm

Nice, thought provoking piece. It wouldn't sound out of place behind a movie at all.One comment I'd make, is that the horn that comes in around 0:30 needs some breaks between the notes. If a real person was playing it, he'd be turning purple by about 0:36 The choir doesn't sound as realistic as the instrumentation to me, Is that EWQL Symphonic Choirs?Good work, I like it.

mixopenta · Post by **mixopenta** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:43 pm

Nice composition! However, it gets a little tricky to make it pop with these orchestral samples IMHO.dgolding is right, unless the horn player are one of those who breaths in through his nose while breathing out through the mouth... (I'm sure I've seen a sax player do that). Same rule could perhaps be applied to the string arrangement that kicks in around 1:01. Perhaps a little 'quick up and down' patch for that segment could work?Overall I think it's very easy to get the sound kind of "sticky", in that there's not enough space "around" each instrument, if you know what I mean. It easily gets very thick. It's a general opinion of mine, and I wrestle with that problem myself, and I have no tangible suggestions as how to remedy it. Maybe the veteran EWSQL users have some suggestions..?

mixopenta · Post by **mixopenta** » Wed May 09, 2007 2:28 am

That makes perfect sense. It's how I would go about it myself. Some like to do detailed work right from the start, and that doesn't work for me at all, as I tend to lose focus from the song.This song is IMO like an Anthem. A scene that comes to mind would be like a 'navy return' scene, but not so much in the sense of them coming home in glory, and to their wife's and families exaltation, as much as them coming home to an uncertain, and somewhat ominous future.This is probably not helpful at all, but that was the feeling I got...

mazz · Post by **mazz** » Wed May 09, 2007 11:30 am

Songwriter,Very nice melodically and sophisticated harmonically. When the clarinets come in and the brass takes over, the harmonic movement is very well done.I think the bass drum and snare drum drag the feel down and don't need to be constantly going to provide forward motion to the piece. Even a slightly military feeling piece such as this doesn't need the snare constantly to remind us of this. If, like you imply at the end with the pipes, this is more of a Celtic feel, then I would recommend a frame drum in place of the bass drum and just use the bass drum for accents. A frame drum speaks faster and could be brought forward in the mix and would help more to give the feel that you want than the lumbering concert bass drum. I'm sure you'll clean up the rhythms when the drums come in on the 6/8 section.Form wise, the part at the end after the percussion section sounds tacked on and the ending is too abrupt. The ending comes too soon, the form doesn't balance what came before it. I know this is a sketch so a little work on the form would make the piece overall feel more balanced.I won't go in to the strings at this point, I think you know how to get rid of the "wavy" feeling of a new attack on every note.I'd love to hear you finish this piece and really give it the attention it deserves to make the orchestra sound more convincing. I know you have the chops to pull it off.Mazz

davewalton · Post by **davewalton** » Thu May 10, 2007 2:21 am

Quote:I did another update which I think has improved it. The link at the top is updated. The drums are now held back until the end, and I have replaced some of the strings with better tracks. The ending could still use some work, but the 6/8 -> 4/4 transition is better. I forgot to give the trumpet players a breathing break though. I'll have to get that in the next update Purple-faced trumpet players provide a little comic relief in an otherwise stuffy concert setting. Nice piece. The only thing I'd say is that the note movements that start just past the 1:00 mark are kind of, well, everything just seems to blend together so that the distinction of the notes is a little lost. It's like maybe that the atttack is a little too slow and, like U Peters said, it's just a tricky to make things pop.Really though, nice piece. Dave

mixopenta · Post by **mixopenta** » Thu May 10, 2007 4:01 am

The updated version is way, way better!It has overall more dynamics, the bagpipes at the end is now audible as well. What I think perhaps is still lacking in terms of enough authentic sounds for a forward, might be that you need to work more with expression for each note of each instrument.When there's a series of notes following each other you could try altering each note's expression, so each note doesn't have the same envelope, or use some key-switch to alter the attack and/or swell. Or perhaps setup a patch, that uses the same section sampled with different attacks, and use them in a random order for that series of notes in order to bring in a little "off-note" experience. You can even drag some notes off their supposed note values, so that attacks differ in time. If used properly, I don't think you will run the risk of increasing muddiness, as opposed of having each note quantized to straight values. (Clear as mud, huh) I'm not sure on this, but I think if you're using EWSQL Gold, you might also have a slur option for at least the strings, which could add some authenticity if applied to selected notes.I'm not saying I'm by any means an expert in this field, I say this only from what I can hear, and the little to none experience I have in working with orchestra libraries. What I want to say is, that I may very well stand corrected on above suggestions

anne · Post by **anne** » Thu May 10, 2007 2:17 pm

This is an incredibly helpful thread I've been wanting to get EWQLSO Gold but have been hesitant because I'm still climbing such a giant, steep learning curve with other instrument software I'm learning (i.e. Stylus RMX). I have 2 questions that I haven't found on the boards regarding software / hardware and orchestral instruments:1. Knowing that I'm not going to send any of these "practice" pieces in to submissions, is it better to keep learning using the built in orchestral instruments (I use Logic) or am I better off learning using the instruments that I eventually would use on "real" pieces, i.e. EWQLSO.2. I don't have a fancy controller - I have a Keystation 49es and expression pedal - so I didn't know if the ability to control and take advantage of the EW software would be negated by my set up. Is this adequate for getting the full effect of the instruments in EW?Thanks in advance!Songwriter - Nice! I like that whole long slow build between 1:30 - 2:00 and then the switch to the bagpipes - nice!

davewalton · Post by **davewalton** » Thu May 10, 2007 3:52 pm

Quote:1. Knowing that I'm not going to send any of these "practice" pieces in to submissions, is it better to keep learning using the built in orchestral instruments (I use Logic) or am I better off learning using the instruments that I eventually would use on "real" pieces, i.e. EWQLSO.I've found that my music has evolved partly due to, and pretty much in sync with, the evolution of the quality and wider variety of my virtual instruments. I upgraded when the time was right. When you feel that your current sounds are holding you back, it's time to upgrade. When I got my first set of orchestral sounds, they weren't holding me back at all at that point. Later, when that started happening, then I started looking to a higher level in my software. Same with the other stuff like Stylus RMX. Things like that definitely evolved. I wouldn't have known what to do with Stylus RMX three years ago.Quote:2. I don't have a fancy controller - I have a Keystation 49es and expression pedal - so I didn't know if the ability to control and take advantage of the EW software would be negated by my set up. Is this adequate for getting the full effect of the instruments in EW?I just have a single Kurzweil Midiboard (15 years old at least) for my controller. Maybe I should (and I'm open to suggestions from anyone) but I don't do my "controlling" with the keyboard. I play the parts and then do my "controlling" within Sonar in various edit modes, drawing expression curves with my mouse, etc. My controller just needs a certain amount of black and white keys, a midi connection, and an electric plug. Dave

mazz · Post by **mazz** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:13 pm

Songwriter,Already the piece is much better. Having the percussion come in later with the pipes really lifts the piece. Bring down the counter melodies behind the trumpet melody near the beginning, let the trumpet stand out a bit there.The middle section starting at 1:00 is still a bit muddy. The counter melodies in the arco strings could come in later to build the section better. I'd have woodwinds playing the melody like you do but drop the accompaniment down to pizzicatto strings at first, very delicate. Have the basses and cellos in octaves play the downbeat and then have the violas and violins play arepeggios, the violas handing off to the violins, in other words: (these are beats) 1 (basses and cellos) 2,3 (violas) (4,5,6) violins . Gradually the strings could start to go back to bow but keep the basses pizz until the repeat right before it breaks in to the pipes. Nice emotional feeling, you know how to do that well.Anne,There are certain basics for MIDI orchestration that apply pretty much to any set of sounds and after that, it's really learning how to manipulate the tools that the more advanced software offers. For instance, the EW libraries rely a lot on keyswitching and crossfading with the mod wheel to change articulations, either prior to the note being played (keyswitching) or while the note is being held (mod wheel).One major thing that will help with orchestration is to do each "player" on their own track. For instance if you want 3 trumpet parts, play each part individually on it's own MIDI track rather than playing chords on the keyboard. That will make a difference in the parts as each will be just a little "off" just like a real trumpet section. I sometimes will have 12 tracks just for the 3 trumpets because each track triggers a different articulation. Some of my orchestrations end up with well over 60-80+ MIDI tracks because of the need to have a lot of articulations available. Also, the EW samples come with each instrument recorded where it would be sitting on the stage in the most common orchestra configuration. No panning is needed (although a little bit is necessary sometimes) when you load up your sections. On other libraries this may not be the case. Doing the correct panning will add space and depth to your orchestrations.Also, instruments that are in the back of the orchestra (percussion, basses, brass) will have a bit more "room" on them if you were to hear the in the concert hall while sitting in the middle of the room. The EW libraries are recorded this way already but other libraries are not. It's a bit disconcerting to hear a close miked timpani come in over the top of the string section. So the mix and how much reverb to use is very important as well.The controller you have is just fine for controlling expressions in the EW software. The only limitation would come in if you wanted to use keyswitching as you were playing. You'd need an 88 key controller for that. Otherwise, I've had good results just playing in the part with a basic articulation and putting in the keyswitches by hand afterwards.Whew! It's a big subject to cover and I've already exceed my verboseness quotient for the day.Mazz

mixopenta · Post by **mixopenta** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:45 pm

All of what Dave and Mazz just said, and it is indeed a huge subject. In addition, it really helps to know at least some basics about each instrument/ensemble, and how they interact with each other in a typical orchestra setup. Although it's essential with any pure orchestra arrangement, I think it's almost equally important, if you're aiming only at doing pop song arrangements.E.g. as we all know strings are divided (mostly) in 5 ensembles; Double bass, Cellos, Violas, 2nd violins and 1st violins (in that order roughly from bottom up). I don't know about other libraries, but EW have sets of each ensemble having each player playing the same note. I.e. all 18 of the 1st violins are playing the same note at the same time when you hit a key. In effect, if you were to press two keys on your keyboard for that ensemble, it would imply that there's 36 players in that ensemble (unless they are hitting more than one string at the time). Going any deeper than this, you would almost need to know how to play that instrument. So, exactly as Mazz said (just continuing on my string example here), setting up one track for each instrument letting each ensemble play one note each, would be the best way to go if you e.g. would like the strings to build something just as simple as a chord. This offers also a great opportunity to offset each ensemble's starting and ending points slightly, so they are not quantized to exact note values, as I imagine it would be close to impossible for 54 (?) musicians to hit a note at exactly the same time (room for jokes here). Using open inversions is also a recommendation.Anyway, not to scare you off, but IMHO the controller would be the least of your worries. Having these kind of libraries acting as complete orchestras would take an immense strain on any computer, regardless of computing power. EW even recommends having several powerful computers linked together, to be able to utilize all expressions that are available.Remember this is just what they recommend, personally I just recently upgraded my PC to 1.5Gb RAM from having only 512... And songwriter, sorry for deviating somewhat from your post but at least it's about orchestral efforts