Real instruments vs VSTs.....

[CHuckmott]

Just a question for general discussion: Have we reached a point in technology where samples are so good and their manipulation , i.e., with VST's is so spot on that we can now do with a keyboard what we used to do with our respective instruments? More to the point, should I be running out and buying a "Guitanjo" and learning how to mic it or going with a great banjo sample set? SOrry but themkinds of responses I want to avoid: the "hire a professional banjo player" and "where would you put all this stuff" (although both great points).

[kclements]

I think we are close as far as the sound of the instrument goes, but we are not close when it comes to performance.

I can call up a guitar patch and sound like a guitar, but I don't know the guitar voicing and nuances of the instrument. I suppose you could learn a bit about how to play every instrument. But I think there is a lot to be said for having real musicians in the same room, adding the little touches that happen when you are playing off one another. There is a reason the big films all use real orchestras and not samples.

I'm working on a jazz project for a listing, and I would love to have a real drummer rather than string a bunch of loops together. Unfortunately, I don't have the room or the budget to hire many real musicians. So I have to make due.

Cheers -
kc

[Kolstad]

Samples are very good, but I think thats a little beside the point. Playing guitar is what makes me enjoy doing music, and playing the actual instrument inspires me to write and produce.

If you don't enjoy the hell out of playing banjo, I would go with samples or a player. Because then you only need it to make one or a batch of tracks work.

I think my point is that I can make better guitar tracks with real instruments than samples (when I judge it myself ), but only because I love the instrument and am "nerdy" about it. If I wasn't as enthusiastic about guitars, samples or hiring a musician can be as good or better options.

[CabDriver]

I think the main issue with virtual instruments lies not in the quality of the underlying samples but in the quality of controllers used to access them. Synthology Ivory II American D is sonically as close as you can get to the real piano but you still have to play the virtual instrument on a keyboard. There are weighted keyboards of great quality out there but none of them feel the same way as a real vintage 1951 Steinway Concert D.

That being said I still prefer to rely on certain virtual instruments such as Toontrack's EZ Drummer. Even if you have the know-how and the budget to get all the gear and mics necessary to adequately record real drums you will still have to book the studio time and a skilled engineer to achieve the same sound. Roland made such great strides in developing responsive electronic drum sets that even pro players in the pop genre will often record everything on an electronic drum kid to have access to the sonic flexibly of virtual drums.

[andygabrys]

I think we are close as far as the sound of the instrument goes, but we are not close when it comes to performance.

I can call up a guitar patch and sound like a guitar, but I don't know the guitar voicing and nuances of the instrument. I suppose you could learn a bit about how to play every instrument. But I think there is a lot to be said for having real musicians in the same room, adding the little touches that happen when you are playing off one another. There is a reason the big films all use real orchestras and not samples.

I'm working on a jazz project for a listing, and I would love to have a real drummer rather than string a bunch of loops together. Unfortunately, I don't have the room or the budget to hire many real musicians. So I have to make due.

Cheers -
kc

if you are looking for a virtual jazz drummer for hire on the interweb - look up David "fingers" Haynes on youtube. not only is he a fine trap drummer, he plays virtual kits using controllers like the Korg Nano like a demon, and he is a toontrack endorser.

of course it costs a bit, and that is the whole point right? doing this on a budget.

[andygabrys]

I think we got great recordings of instruments a long time ago, and what is catching up now is the computing power (big CPUs and especially 64 bit memory access and fast SSDs) that is facilitating the ability to program those instruments in a convincing manner using the scripting in Kontakt for example.

Like in 2006 - Vienna already had their symphonic cube. are there any "better" recordings of strings today? (discounting the fact that VSL recorded all dry and you need reverbs to make them sound great).

Is the recording of the EW Hollywood Strings any "better". Is LASS any better". Not likely - aren't they all 24 bit 44k or 48 k?.

but now you have a lot more power in your computer and this gives you two options:

1. the East West / VSL route where every possible performance is recorded, giving a bazillion articulations to wade through, and either the need to spend a bunch of time making a custom template for each cue to keep CPU demands on the lower side, or having the computer network that ate Tokyo.

2. the LASS model - record less stuff, give up some of the articulations and bells and whistles, and script together the things that you have recorded so that they are more playable in real time, and give you control of parameters to seamlessly (or almost seamlessly) cross-fade between non-vibrato and vibrato.

Seems like option 2 is more flexible for what 80% of people are doing.

[andygabrys]

but more to the point:

learning any instrument always gives you a win. even if you then go back to sequence stuff using a VI. you just know the moves on that instrument, and what is possible, usual and normal.

the stuff that people usually use VI's for is stuff that is attack and sustain (or no sustain) and no manipulation of the tail of the note. That stuff is easy and can be done successfully. think bout it.

Drums
piano
Banjo


the stuff that is a bear is the stuff where every note is so personal, and there is so much expression that its almost a lost cause:

saxophone

even the sample modeling saxophones fall down for me. and they are very well put together and controllable are they not? but hey, I played saxophone for a long time.

[Len911]

I remember someone a few years ago made a violin recording, and someone commented she needed a better violin sample, and it was a real violin. If you don't have a decent space to record, I'm sure the best drummer in the world wouldn't sound that great in a corner of the basement. If you can afford and know how to play a guitanjo, and there actually is such a thing, why not? It would be a lot easier than trying to manipulate samples most of the time. But I suppose that depends on whether you use the free guitanjo with 3 velocities and 2 articulations, or the Guitanjo Maxx with 175 velocities and 14 articulations.

[CHuckmott]

Yes they really do exist. A banjo tuned liked a guitar, and (Not sure though) with as many as six strings. Was my name for it after playing a (their name, Yamaha makes one, so does Ibanez) a guitalele. Ran across a store here in town that sells all sorts of weird exotic musical instruments , but also sells handmade congas, hand drums, other instruments with a world sort of flavor to them. Real neat place, but music or instruments is not actually what they sell there.

[CHuckmott]

Yes saxophone would be one of those...one my favorite guitarists as far as phrasing, etc., is Robben FOrd who credits his first instrument - sax - for how he plays and his approach to phrasing/soloing. He can even be heard playing sax on a few of his tracks. My personal favorite all time musician is John Coltrane, I've played the My Favorite Things , A Love Supreme , and Giant Steps albums so often I could almost sing them to note.