Release forms (proof of ownership) question....

[tedsingingfox]

Quote:Hi Ted,It sucks that you have to deal with a primadonna like this when you may have a possible deal coming.There may be one unfortunate problem that you brought up. I don't believe you will be able to make changes to a song and cut a writer out of the deal. Jason Blume spoke to this in a music business class I attended a couple rallies ago. Someone in the class asked if they could redo a song with a different lyricist since there was a falling out with his original co-writer. Jason said that once you agree to a co-write split whether in writing or verbally you are contractually bound to that agreement. If this guy can lay claim to co-writing this song he is within his rights to demand his share regardless of how many changes you make and can actually bar you from making those changes.I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I hope you can somehow work things out with this guy. This is a lot easier said than done especially if you don't have the funds or ability to get together quickly, but what is the possibility of writing a new song really similar to what you submitted and got forwarded? What I mean is you could tell the publisher that the song is no longer available, but you have another one ready to go. That way you could start writing the song now and have it ready should the opportunity arise.Best of luck my friend,CiscoREALLY appreciate that, Cisco. And a possibility I'll need to take into account, no doubt. As I'm prepared for just about ANY reaction from 'god', I'll deal with it when the time comes. And in the meantime, I'll keep writing.Tedps. hoping there's good news in my mailbox this afternoon. will keep you posted.

[sgs4u]

I find this contract stuff fascinating, and enlightening. Rachel, I don't have nearly the clout or experience Matto & Casey have with these matters, so don't pay any attention to my advice. It's pretty obvious how many of us Noobs (I'm definitely still one of the noobs), need to learn this information, effectively and efficiently. When a subject like this gets secretive like this, it starts to smell funny. And in my experience here on this forum, when the shit hits the fan, we all learn a LOT more...But I do have a couple of questions for Matt & Casey.Are suggesting we should refrain from posting agreements because some people are lawsuit crazy? I agree that there are a lot of people out there looking to make a buck, from starting a lawsuit that gets eventually settled out of court. Are there other reasons? When you post a link to the same type of agreement in a John Braheny book, doesn't that also make Mr Braheny potentially liable, as well as whomever posted the link here? Obviously there are things I don't understand, and you know I'm not scared to admit it. And if you wish to answer my questions in PM's, then I'm more than happy to keep them confidential. I simply don't really understand why yet.

[Casey H]

Quote:I find this contract stuff fascinating, and enlightening. Rachel, I don't have nearly the clout or experience Matto & Casey have with these matters, so don't pay any attention to my advice. It's pretty obvious how many of us Noobs (I'm definitely still one of the noobs), need to learn this information, effectively and efficiently. When a subject like this gets secretive like this, it starts to smell funny. And in my experience here on this forum, when the shit hits the fan, we all learn a LOT more...But I do have a couple of questions for Matt & Casey.Are suggesting we should refrain from posting agreements because some people are lawsuit crazy? I agree that there are a lot of people out there looking to make a buck, from starting a lawsuit that gets eventually settled out of court. Are there other reasons? When you post a link to the same type of agreement in a John Braheny book, doesn't that also make Mr Braheny potentially liable, as well as whomever posted the link here? Obviously there are things I don't understand, and you know I'm not scared to admit it. And if you wish to answer my questions in PM's, then I'm more than happy to keep them confidential. I simply don't really understand why yet. Hi Steve You raise excellent points. Two things to consider are:If John Braheny has a contract on his website, that's really his issue. Posting a link is better because should the content there change there would not be stale (and therefore incorrect) information as would happen if exact text were pasted.As far as legal liabilities I think that's mainly an issue for TAXI to decide- do they feel that having that sort of thing here opens them up to problems? (I am working on the assumption it is bad for them). One thing that happens is people find there way here to posts not just from the forum, but with Google-ing from all directions. Information gets taken out of context, assumed to be right (how many times have you found something WRONG on the Internet?), etc. Personally, I've made the decision not to post any exact legal language because it's public and I'm not qualified (e.g. not a lawyer). If someone uses what I posted and gets hurt because of it, even if I don't get sued, I would have inadvertently made a mess for someone and that's one thing I never want to do.That being said, I would be happy to post suggestions for the TYPES OF THINGS (in general terms) that might be covered in an agreement, what they mean, and why they are important. That way I can contribute to education of the forum without the liabilities. Everyone should remember "they wouldn't print it if it weren't true" definitely does not apply to stuff on the Internet. Well, back to software engineering, dinner, and writing music... Casey

[matto]

It's not about being secretive, it's about not posting contracts/agreements IN PUBLIC that were not meant to be shared IN PUBLIC. Hence the suggestion to use PM's.Agreements on John's website probably come from his book, therefore were meant to be published, and you can be sure they've been vetted by a qualified attorney.It is John's decision to post agreements on his website, and part of his business. Links to his site are therefore no problem. Copying the contract and pasting it here without his express permission would not be okay IMHO. I think there's a clear difference there. And Rachel I know you did this out of the goodness of your heart and because you wanted to help Ted so I'm not criticizing you, I hope you understand that.But, this forum is owned and operated by Taxi, and any contracts/agreements posted here should be run past Taxi and posted only with their permission.Steve...you should know by now I'm not about keeping information away from newbies or shrouding the inner workings of the music business in a cloud of mystery... mattoEdit: well I just see Casey the internet addict beat me to it but maybe this post is helpful anyway...

[rlcmusic]

Hi,Just to clarify - I would never post any "personal" contracts in a forum. The post was an example work for hire contract from John Braheny which I found very useful to learn from at the time. It clearly stated that everybody is in their own unique situation and it was there as an example. I've seen many posts linking to example contracts which in effect is doing the same thing - letting people view 'examples' to try and help them understand the subject. I didn't 'lift' it from his website either - I was simply trying to help. Anyway - it's gone!

[sgs4u]

Quote:It's not about being secretive, it's about not posting contracts/agreements IN PUBLIC that were not meant to be shared IN PUBLIC. Hence the suggestion to use PM's.Steve...you should know by now I'm not about keeping information away from newbies or shrouding the inner workings of the music business in a cloud of mystery... matto.You were the first guy here to start teaching me Matto. I'm not gonna forget that. I think you both know me well enough to know that I ain't scared to stick my neck out to learn something, stick up for someone else or tell someone to quit whining, when I think they need to hear it.I don't like things that interfere with my own progress or growth. Pretty selfish that way, I admit it. What I'm seeing here, is that my own resistance to this legal crap, is clouding my ability to move forward. Almost everything I learn outside of Taxi, is that most agreements are handshakes with people you trust. I'm not trying to win popularity awards, just wanna get some songs CUT.

[hummingbird]

Quote:Quote:It's not about being secretive, it's about not posting contracts/agreements IN PUBLIC that were not meant to be shared IN PUBLIC. Hence the suggestion to use PM's.Steve...you should know by now I'm not about keeping information away from newbies or shrouding the inner workings of the music business in a cloud of mystery... matto.You were the first guy here to start teaching me Matto. I'm not gonna forget that. I think you both know me well enough to know that I ain't scared to stick my neck out to learn something, stick up for someone else or tell someone to quit whining, when I think they need to hear it.I don't like things that interfere with my own progress or growth. Pretty selfish that way, I admit it. What I'm seeing here, is that my own resistance to this legal crap, is clouding my ability to more forward. Almost everything I learn outside of Taxi, is that most agreements are handshakes with people you trust. I'm not trying to win popularity awards, just wanna get some songs CUT. Unfortunately, according to the mentor entertainment lawyer that I had an exhange with.. your handshake isn't worth the paper it's written not on. People change when money is involved. That's not to say that you don't have integrity, I *know* you do. But. He said he's seen too many court cases where agreements were not signed. It's *a lot* more costly to deal with things after the fact, when potential deals and potential income is lost, because the business of songwriting wasn't taken care of at the start. Seems to me that it is only common sense to do the paperwork of co-writing agreements, work-for-hire/master releases, copyright registration and registering with a PRO. It's just part of the business of being a professional songwriter/musician/producer.

[Casey H]

Quote:Edit: well I just see Casey the internet addict beat me to it but maybe this post is helpful anyway... Hey, who you calling an addict? Your post was at 6:19 PM and I am just reading it at around 7:51 PM... That means I was not here for 1 hour and 32 minutes... Possibly, a personal best!!! Casey

[Casey H]

Quote:Unfortunately, according to the mentor entertainment lawyer that I had an exchange with.. your handshake isn't worth the paper it's written not on. People change when money is involved. That's not to say that you don't have integrity, I *know* you do. But. He said he's seen too many court cases where agreements were not signed. It's *a lot* more costly to deal with things after the fact, when potential deals and potential income is lost, because the business of songwriting wasn't taken care of at the start. Seems to me that it is only common sense to do the paperwork of co-writing agreements, work-for-hire/master releases, copyright registration and registering with a PRO. It's just part of the business of being a professional songwriter/musician/producer.So true... I think if one reads some of the horror stories right here on this forum, this becomes pretty obvious. Casey (the addict)

[Casey H]

Quote:Hi,Just to clarify - I would never post any "personal" contracts in a forum. The post was an example work for hire contract from John Braheny which I found very useful to learn from at the time. It clearly stated that everybody is in their own unique situation and it was there as an example. I've seen many posts linking to example contracts which in effect is doing the same thing - letting people view 'examples' to try and help them understand the subject. I didn't 'lift' it from his website either - I was simply trying to help. Anyway - it's gone! RachelNo worries... Everyone here knows that you were only trying to help a fellow musician... Casey