Render In Place query - Cubase 10.5 Pro

[markparr]

Hi guys,

I have a question about render in place in Cubase 10.5 Pro. When I render a Midi track to Audio, there are clicks in the sound when I play back the Audio track. These clicks don't appear in the Midi files.

I am rendering down post mix. Should I render in place before I start mixing and is this causing the issue. I can't seem to find any info on this online.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Mark

[cassmcentee]

I believe most people render in place
The midi track will deactivate after, leaving a new audio channel with the rendering
All of the effects on that midi channel will be applied...
Without hearing it I can only guess that an insert on your Master Buss is causing it

[Telefunkin]

Just a thought, how's your CPU indicator looking when you run the track (regardless of whether you're playing back the midi or the rendered audio)? Sometimes, if the project is really stressing the CPU you can get audio clicks while the track is playing in Cubase even though there are no clicks in any of the source midi or audio, and they won't be there in the rendered audio* (because it doesn't have to be rendered in real time). You could test that by playing rendered audio files using another media player instead of Cubase.

If what I've said starts to look like it might be happening for you, you might be better off employing the usual tricks to limit the problem, such as freezing some or all of the midi sound sources, or freezing the sources and the channels, get rid of any unused plugins and try to use FX channels for reverbs etc that you need on more than one channel. You might also find certain plugins will hog CPU, so you could remove them until you're ready for serious mixing. Also, you might try increasing the buffer size, even just temporarily, although you'll get an increase in latency when doing so but that shouldn't be a problem unless you still need play in new parts.

*There's always the chance that the clicks are from electrical interference, but that's an entirely different problem and its likely to affect all your projects, not just rendering midi to audio.

Remember though, its not compulsory to render midi to audio, even if it can be a good be idea in an attempt to future-proof a project.

[RPaul]

Cubase has the option to render audio in real time, though I'm not sure if that only applies to exports or also render in place. If it does also apply to render in place, that could be the issue if your CPU is being taxed. I never use render in place because I am frequently taxing my CPU on mixdowns to the degree that I can be hearing artifacts in playback (which pretty much assures they'd appear in mixdowns if I used the real time rendering).

The real time rendering is mainly needed for certain plugins that don't do well with non-real time renders. (I haven't encountered any of those in a very long time now, but I assume there are still some around.)

MIDI files do not make any sound (they are only instructions to whatever instruments are receiving the data on what to play), so it's not clear what you mean by not having clicks in the MIDI files themselves. I am guessing it means when playing the same MIDI data you are rendering elsewhere, be that also in Cubase, playing back live, or in some other application that can play the MIDI data.

FWIW, I don't use render in place very often, but do freeze Cubase instrument tracks frequently. The main difference is Cubase doesn't create separate audio tracks in the project when freezing -- it locks the MIDI clips and plays back the audio data from files in the Freeze directory. But there are times when I want to specifically manipulate the audio data afterwards, where I do use render in place.

Rick

[markparr]

Hi Guys,

Thank you for your advice.

To follow up, when I play the track in Cubase, the CPU doesn't spike but when I render an individual track the CPU spikes during the rendering process.
I have rendered one individual track, and based on your advice Telefunkin, I have then exported that track and played it on another Media and there are no clicks which does suggest that this is a CPU issue.

The only reason that I wanted to render the Midi files to Audio is to future proof my tracks. Once I have completed a Project, I always export each track to Audio but I wasn't too sure if that was sufficient to safeguard against expired or missing plugins / sample libraries in the future.

Rick - with regards to freezing each track. Once the track has been frozen are you saying that the audio files stored in the Freeze directory, future proofs the track as it uses it own stored audio file?

Any advice, once again, would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

Mark

[RPaul]

Hi Mark,

To follow up, when I play the track in Cubase, the CPU doesn't spike but when I render an individual track the CPU spikes during the rendering process.
I have rendered one individual track, and based on your advice Telefunkin, I have then exported that track and played it on another Media and there are no clicks which does suggest that this is a CPU issue.

I suspect something may be borderline, and maybe the rendering process takes it just over the line for some reason. I still think, though, that there should be some way to tell Cubase not to do real-time rendering (I know there definitely is for exports, but I don't have Cubase open at this point to poke around on the rendering front.)

Also, though, because the render will involve disk access, as does playing back the rendered audio track later, it is possible what you are seeing is a disk issue. If the rendered audio file itself doesn't have the clicks (i.e. when played outside of Cubase -- I think that is what you mean by "played it on another media and there are no clicks"), then the clicks in Cubase may mean it's not able to stream the audio from disk quickly enough. I had this problem at one point. Specifically, I was freezing tracks because I was at CPU limits, but, after freezing the tracks, the audio artifacts in playback got even worse, which didn't make sense to me short of having disk issues. I ran some tests on my disks, ultimately with a free product called CrystalDiskInfo, and found that the disk I was using for audio was going bad. I temporarily relocated the Cubase directory for the project to another disk, and it was fine then. I ultimately replaced the failing hard disk with an SSD of the same size, and I haven't had those sorts of problems since. (I still to hit the CPU wall at times when mixing, or when having a bunch of heavy duty virtual instruments active at the same time prior to freezing them.)

The only reason that I wanted to render the Midi files to Audio is to future proof my tracks. Once I have completed a Project, I always export each track to Audio but I wasn't too sure if that was sufficient to safeguard against expired or missing plugins / sample libraries in the future.

Rick - with regards to freezing each track. Once the track has been frozen are you saying that the audio files stored in the Freeze directory, future proofs the track as it uses it own stored audio file?

Sort of. There are pros and cons of each method.

With Freeze, the virtual instrument gets frozen into an audio file in the Freeze subdirectory. You have the choice of freezing with or without inserts, but it is an either/or thing, so the frozen file will either include the inserts or not -- there is no having both. Also, if you unfreeze later (e.g. if you want to change the MIDI part or edit the insert settings), then the audio file gets deleted. The audio file also isn't included in Cubase's audio pool as far as I'm aware. However, if you Backup the project (be it by just backing up the project directory manually or by using Cubase's Backup command), the freeze files will be included. (I use the Backup command at the end of a project because it has an option to only back up files that are used in the project, so won't get stuff in disabled tracks, such as all the audio take components that didn't get used after comping.) That audio file is in a standard format, and can be imported into other DAWs, if needed. Of course, it will come into Cubase if you open the project from the backups later, too. BUT, if you then unfreeze, and there are problems with the plugin(s) in that were frozen, you could lose the audio file. (Of course, you could read it back in from your backup media if needed.) Also, if you're freezing with inserts included (which is a good safety against those insert plugins not being available in the future), they will be included in the audio, which could be a blessing or a curse if your intent is to remix the project, starting with just the virtual instrument sound. (I find that, by mix time, I am usually freezing instrument tracks with inserts to save CPU. In that case, the Pre section of Cubase's mixer -- basically, gain, high-cut, and low-cut -- are also included, though Cubase's channel strip is not by default, which still allows making some EQ changes in the mix.)

With Render in Place, you'd have whatever you include in that (and I think it can include inserts, but don't recall for certain -- I mainly use it when I want to break out specific parts from a multi-instrument virtual instrument, such as breaking out different drums in Superior Drummer or percussion instruments from Shimmer Shake Strike, where I specifically want to process the tracks differently without using multiple outputs in the instrument, and/or maybe to be able to tweak the arrangement at the audio level later in the process), but, if you're using audio inserts after that you'd have the option of freezing the audio track with the inserts later, and you'd have the raw audio tracks in the pool plus the frozen tracks with inserts in the Freeze files. (And, of course, you could do a render in place of the processed audio files, too, getting both the raw and processed ones in the pool.)

To date, I've mostly used Freeze for my future proofing of instrument tracks, though I also create stems at the end of every project to get submixes. Stems obviously aren't as flexible as the original tracks for remix purposes, but would be sufficient for, say, just lowering the lead vocal or the drums in an overall mix -- the flexibility mostly depends on what you include in the stems. I'm currently new enough to Cubase (started with 9.5, but really only made it my primary DAW for new projects at 10.5 -- I'm now on 11) that I generally haven't had to go back and remix projects or worry about missing plugins to date. Most of my remixing projects came from Cakewalk/SONAR, and, with a few exceptions, I've just remixed those in Cakewalk by BandLab for quicker turnaround. However, in both cases, I always export a Type 1 MIDI file (this gives me the original MIDI data, including markers and tempo maps, and any DAW can read this), plus I will have the audio files that are still in the project including frozen audio, so if the plugins aren't available for whatever reason (and this has happened quite a few times since my Cakewalk projects go back as far as 2000) I can at least get those tracks back to how they were as a starting point. Most of the time, part of my reason for remixing will include replacing older virtual instruments with newer, better ones, and often starting fresh on other audio processing (as my production quality has improved significantly over the decades). But there have been a few cases where I absolutely needed to keep those original tracks in their audio form (e.g. I'd used a Zero-G Vocaloid product for layering some backup vocals on one song, and that product didn't work on my newer computer, and I have no desire to use Vocaloids in the future), so having the original audio can definitely be a lifesaver.

I've only fairly recently started to become more familiar with the Render in Place capabilities, and have at least been considering whether I might want to shift my strategy here, though not so much for futureproofing purposes. Rather, I know many people prefer to render everything to audio before mixing, and my projects are all virtual instruments other than the vocals (and the extremely rare cases where I might use third party loops). That can provide the flexibility to send it to another DAW for mixing from scratch by someone with different plugins, or to start totally fresh in another project within your DAW (i.e. without having insert processing embedded in the freeze files in my typical use case) without having to worry about whether the virtual instrument still works. Of course, it would also dramatically increase my track count, and probably also the size of my project archive files since there would likely be double the audio at the track level (i.e. raw audio plus those same tracks frozen with inserts for performance reasons). For now, though, I'm keeping to the stems plus frozen instrument tracks (usually with inserts included), along with the occasional submix audio (e.g. background vocals, really just to save mix-time processing compared to dealing with the individual tracks, even frozen, going through a subgroup, where that subgroup processing can be pretty heavy -- I can always freeze the submix of the subgroup to free up that part of the processing, while still giving me the option to unfreeze it to tweak it).

Rick

[Telefunkin]

I used to think it was important to future-proof my Cubase projects but I've changed my mind in the last few years. Most of my work is instrumentals that are for intended for music libraries under exclusive contract in perpetuity. Therefore, once they're signed up I won't be working on them any more. All I need is a copy of the final mix (and it wouldn't be the end of the world if I lost that because the tracks are all held in my music library accounts). Therefore, I've stopped worrying about it.

Of course, there are tracks that don't get signed straight away, so I might tweak them and pitch them elsewhere, but eventually the not-so-good ones will be abandoned (not too many), but in the long-term I hope the rest will all find a home.

I understand that everyone else might work differently though. For example, some might want to periodically revisit/update/remix their personal releases that are not under contract, so facilitating that requires more consideration. I've seen various strategies, such as rendering all individual tracks to audio with and without plugins, perhaps bussed groups too. Again, I can't see myself doing that but it makes sense to facilitate re-construction of a project from the raw and/or processed audio tracks. Cubase provides all sorts of options to do these things (that I never use) and I believe you can also set up batch processes (that I also never use). No doubt its all in the manual, in umpteen Youtube videos, and in several training courses if you want to learn how go that far. It might be a while before I get to that bit .

[RPaul]

I used to think it was important to future-proof my Cubase projects but I've changed my mind in the last few years. Most of my work is instrumentals that are for intended for music libraries under exclusive contract in perpetuity. Therefore, once they're signed up I won't be working on them any more. All I need is a copy of the final mix (and it wouldn't be the end of the world if I lost that because the tracks are all held in my music library accounts). Therefore, I've stopped worrying about it.

That makes a lot of sense in the context of your focus. I don't currently do much on the cues, or even general instrumental, side of things, but I'd likely take a similar approach on that front, though I definitely still do make stems, but really more in case things get signed to a library and they are needed rather than for remix purposes.

In my case, I am primarily a songwriter who, over the years (decades really) has gone from just producing demos of my songs to putting my own recordings out, initially through on a few multi-artist projects (one for charity and another for an indie label/music library) then starting, back in 2006 to release my own singles, EPs, and albums. All of my albums have at least a few tracks that were remixed, to one degree or another, ranging from just doing some remastering to only keeping a small number of tracks (most typically the vocals and maybe some signature sounds that would be too tough to replace with my far better current collection of virtual instruments). To give one of the more extreme examples, I have a track, "Lust", on my 2016 pop/AC album ("In and Out of Love Again") that dates back to 2000 and an early experiment with Acid (of the Sonic Foundry/Sony/Magix sort, not LSD). I haven't had Acid in ages, but SONAR, which was my DAW at the time, could handle Acid loops. I don't even remember what the state of my archives of that project were (I know I would have done vocals in an earlier DAW, though, be it Cakewalk Pro Audio or something I was using prior to that point). I do remember there was one sound that involved some motion that I had to find a way to recreate in the new context because the plugin I'd used originally was DirectX, but that was no longer supported, and whatever I'd used to make the sound was long gone, so I was trying to approximate it using newer softsynths, but other of the tracks were from audio loops, and it was more a matter of figuring out what to do to sculpt the mix while trying to dramatically improve the production quality. Second place goes to a 2006 track ("Bubble Gum") that I'd put out as a single at the time, but wanted to include on my 2020 album ("Moments of Insanity"). I think in that case I was able to mostly replace virtual instruments with modern equivalents using the MIDI (and in some cases, the original instruments may still have worked). That was at least staying within the Cakewalk-family DAWs (some early SONAR version to Cakewalk by BandLab). That album actually has quite a few remixes, some of them significant, such as only using the vocals and one guitar part off the original and turning what had been a pop track into a country track. Another was one I'd redone for a TAXI opportunity (from a 2008) track, going from a country-flavored thing to more of a Dan Fogelberg-ish ballad (the newer version actually got forwarded by TAXI, though nothing came of that).

I understand that everyone else might work differently though. For example, some might want to periodically revisit/update/remix their personal releases that are not under contract, so facilitating that requires more consideration. I've seen various strategies, such as rendering all individual tracks to audio with and without plugins, perhaps bussed groups too. Again, I can't see myself doing that but it makes sense to facilitate re-construction of a project from the raw and/or processed audio tracks. Cubase provides all sorts of options to do these things (that I never use) and I believe you can also set up batch processes (that I also never use). No doubt its all in the manual, in umpteen Youtube videos, and in several training courses if you want to learn how go that far. It might be a while before I get to that bit .

Most of my revisiting older projects is in one of 3 contexts. The first is when collecting older tracks I've put out there as singles into an album, where I may want to remix the singles due to production quality improvements or to use basic ingredients in another way (e.g. a country mix of a pop track or vice versa). Other than in the genre-change case, this type is usually meant to be of the "low hanging fruit" variety for getting an album together. The second is when I'm starting with something I initially put together as a demo and now want to turn it into a release-worthy recording, where I'd like to salvage as much as I can from the initial recording, but know I'll need to redo some parts, and probably flesh out the arrangement more (e.g. adding background vocals). The third case is more TAXI-specific, and is where there is a listing where I think I have something that may fit, but where some dramatic change is needed to tailor it to the listing (e.g. the case I mentioned above going from sort of country/bluegrass-ish to a Fogelberg-ish ballad -- that one was actually closer to my original vision for the song, but the country track was one I'd initially done for a female singer's artist demo and mostly had to change its key fand add my vocals or the album it had been on; I'd separately done a pop version of that on another album, but that was probably even using different vocals).

Just as one example, though, my latest album (2020 -- "Moments of Insanity") has 6 tracks that were either new recordings or taken as is from relatively recent singles. Of the remaining 6 tracks, one was a major remix (pop to country) of an earlier release where I'd wanted the country version to target a TAXI country/pop listing. One other was somewhat similar in that I'd earlier put it out as pop, but had also had a country demo of it (initially done for a female singer then redone for my vocal), but still needed a much better mix to put out. One other was the country-to-Fogelberg-ish thing I mentioned above. The other three were remixes of past singles to make anywhere from minor to major mix quality improvements.

Rick

[markparr]

Thank you guys for your very detailed replies. I appreciate the time spent in replying.

I think that I will freeze my tracks (including Plugins) from now on, as that seems to be a workable get around. I still haven't the foggiest why my Rendered Audio pops, clicks and crackles

Thank you once again for all of your advice.

[CEMundt]

Are you using external gear and/or a wordclock? You might be hearing jitter.

https://headfonics.com/what-is-jitter-in-audio/

How does it sound when you bounce the track? What about mixdown?