Return for MODERN INDIE FOLK SONGS

[jerrybeirne]

I've had a few forwards here and generally I understand and respect the feedback I get on Taxi, usually it's a genre-miss, and I know my music is too niche for most requests. But I wanted to see if others agree with the feedback I received on this one because it has me questioning my ears. Feedback was:

"The backing vocals around 1:31 - 1:53 need to be in sync. They are also pitchy and a bit dissonant and need another pass. The vocals need another pass. There are too many pitchy sections."

This is for this song: https://www.taxi.com/members/O8Ee21nVR_ ... -of-me-now

This song has some borrowed chords/key changes/chromaticism, I get that not everyone will dig (or follow) those changes, but do you really hear vocals being so off? I've used this vocalist many times and I've never heard anyone say that about her before. We've done some cool jazz songs and she always nails it IMO.

thanks!
Jerry

[cosmicdolphin]

This song has some borrowed chords/key changes/chromaticism, I get that not everyone will dig (or follow) those changes, but do you really hear vocals being so off?

I think that's your problem right there. The songs are there to provide emotion and support to a scene . The listener shouldn't need a music degree to be able to follow along or understand if it's any good or not.

Your singer sounds like she has a good voice, I had trouble making out what she was singing at times but I think that's more of a mix issue. On the section in question honestly there's so many thing happening it's kinda hard to tell if it's pitchy or just some dissonance. Probably the latter but the backing vocals against the chords, against the melody seems like a bit of a jumble. Now you might be able to tell me it's all harmonically aligned and the various parts should technically work together but as a listener some things do just sound 'off'

The worst bit for me around 57s where there is a note or chord that jumps out as wrong to my ears. I'm not a music theory guy though, I just play by ear so there might be others that can give you more detail on why it might sound off to them.

My only advice would be if you already know that not everyone will dig/follow it then don't do it. Keep that for the jazz tracks,

Mark

[jerrybeirne]

I think that's your problem right there. The songs are there to provide emotion and support to a scene . The listener shouldn't need a music degree to be able to follow along or understand if it's any good or not.

Mark

Thanks Mark, I can see what you mean. I don't add complexity to a song to challenge the user's ear to follow along, I add things because that is where my musical ear tells me where to go, and how to add interest and tension to a song, rather than just fitting in to the main stream like a Taylor Swift song. Yes I know she's crazy successful. But what you're saying about the guitar and vocals all at once has some merit...esp if being considered for a movie/TV show. Granted I wrote this song to release it, not specifically for Taxi. But bands that I love (steely dan, pat metheny) might have similar things going on musically but it's cleaner.

Bottom line though is I don't think the singer had pitch problems. But maybe the reviewer couldn't quite make out what was going on, which is fair.

And not to go off on a tangent, but if you watch guys like Rick Beato, there are almost no successful songs anymore that change keys. I'm hoping to change that

Thanks again,
Jerry

[cosmicdolphin]

Granted I wrote this song to release it, not specifically for Taxi. But bands that I love (steely dan, pat metheny) might have similar things going on musically but it's cleaner.

This is the difference between writing for yourself and writing something that can be useful for a library / publisher.

If the goal is to monetize your music you'll likely have a lot more songs placed in Film & TV at the moment if they sound more like Taylor Swift than like Steely Dan. That's not to say one is better than the other, it's just where the market is right now. The best paying TV shows are funded by advertising which is driven by target demographics and often skews towards the younger audience - and that audience wants the likes of Taylor Swift right now because that's what's contemporary in today's market.

5 - 10yrs from now she will be considered old hat and someone else will be flavour of the month, and the requests from libraries and music supes will reflect the contemporary tastes of the time.

As you will see many times in these forums " Write For The Listing " is the best advice if you want more forwards and ultimately more placements and royalties. Dave Kropf of 52 cues often talks about being an Artisan rather than an Artist which I think is a great way of putting it.

And not to go off on a tangent, but if you watch guys like Rick Beato, there are almost no successful songs anymore that change keys. I'm hoping to change that

Yes I do watch quite a few of his videos, especially the ones where he listens to the latest Top 10. Great videos but my point is if you write for sync then don't include key changes as this just makes it difficult for them to use your music. Put yourself in the shoes of a video editor that's trying to use a song for a scene. They never use the whole thing , maybe just a verse and a chorus. They need to get out of the scene by having a shortend edit of the music end nicely. This is usually done by cutting the button ending from the end of the song and pasting it onto the end of whichever other parts they've used. If you've got key changes then this can screw the whole thing up as your song may not end on the right chord for the edited version and they will just wind up using another song instead.

Even if key changes became popular again it commercial music it would be difficult to work with them in TV.

[jerrybeirne]

Excellent post - yeah if I took out the "interesting" parts of my song, it would definitely have a better shot for Taxi, but would have little chance of getting noticed as a release.

Rick Beato had Jimmy Webb on last month and they talked about "wichita lineman", man what a song. It's the favorite song of so many musicians. If I was a real Taxi pro, I could remove my musical influences from my songs, I'll have to see if I can. If not, Taxi probably isn't the place for me. Like Rick discussed, the only pop song with key changes in years is "leave the door open" by Bruno Mars, cool song. The top rock song in the charts was at like 120, a Foofighters song. And Pit Bull has more streams than all jazz songs combined ever on Spotify. If that's not depressing IDK what is.

Songs that I love for years are ones that I needed to listen to several times until I "got" them, and that's how I think it should be. In Rick's Sting interview, Sting said if he's not "surprised" by the song after 20 seconds, he turns it off. I don't try for one second to make my songs complex or jazz influenced, it's just that after listening to Grieg (last spring), Dvorak (serenade for strings), Scott Henderson, Steely Dan...I just love how the notes in chords slowly move throughout a song, drawing out different feelings and emotions. Not to compare myself to these artists in any way, they are just my musical influences. My song "Your Girl" was forwarded here and is pretty out there I think, so there's hope. Somewhere between Norah Jones and Billie Eilish. I don't think snippets of my songs would work well for sync, like you say, in my mind they'd be more like played for a couple minutes in the beginning, end or over a long scene.

Thanks again!
Jerry

[jerrybeirne]

So bottom line is, if the point is that my little song has dissonance, some weird tension buildup, some outside chords/notes that a listener won't "get" upon first listen, yes, guilty as charged! That was my intention. I don't think any great song doesn't have that stuff. (not that I'm claiming mine is a great song necessarily) But if the claim is that the singer sang out of key, no that is incorrect. I listened to the isolated vocals very carefully before adding them to my song. I really just needed to see if anyone else specifically felt the singing was out of tune.

Today's music just rarely has such interesting stuff. Not that I think it all sucks or anything, I'm just saying that, just like you said, today's music for the most part is forgettable and unremarkable.

[Telefunkin]

The top rock song in the charts was at like 120, a Foofighters song. And Pit Bull has more streams than all jazz songs combined ever on Spotify. If that's not depressing IDK what is.

.....and the folk doing that streaming make up a huge swathe of the viewing public, so they're not depressed by it, and content creators are fully aware of it. If you read a selection of Taxi listings you'll see the most common criterion they state is 'current sounding', particularly if they are for reality TV, although occasional retro listings do come along. Those who are willing and able to push their personal musical tastes aside and go with the flow are much more likely to get their tracks on TV. I'm not being critical of anyone, its just the way it is. Furthermore, as a viewer you don't get chance to listen to the background music several times, and your music is there to support the scene and not take the attention from the actors by demanding further listening. If is does grab attention then its probably a bad choice of music by the editor.

Songs that I love for years are ones that I needed to listen to several times until I "got" them, and that's how I think it should be.

Me too, but sadly, even if we, Rick Beato, and a few million others 'think that's how it should be' we don't have the power to make it happen in music charts, streaming or sync. Its a pointless crusade. The only way forward, particularly in sync, is to keep up by embracing new music and finding what's good about it. IMHO there's no reason you can't keep making music in any style that satisfies your own personal preferences, but realistically, even as an artist, that music might never get much attention for all the same reasons. Again, no criticism implied, but breaking through as an artist by making retro music (or any music for that matter) regardless of how good, is a lot more difficult than getting into sync.

As a final comment, we've been here many times before . New members often say things like 'I don't watch TV', and 'I don't like current music', yet they want to be part of an industry that's moves with the times. There's a disconnect there somewhere .

Anyway, all my comments are intended to be helpful, so I hope that you find something of use in there. Good luck to you.

[jerrybeirne]

Anyway, all my comments are intended to be helpful, so I hope that you find something of use in there. Good luck to you.

Yes! They are helpful thank you. I did go down the path here with what "modern sounding" music is, with the "cicada" percussion and simple music forms, and I'm not totally opposed to giving it a try. That's more keyboard-centered though, and I'm primarily a guitarist...but I can play some keys so we'll see. I know I wouldn't be super proud to send a song like that to family and friends saying "hey check out my new song", however, I know I would be proud to say "hey tune into --- tonight at 8, you'll hear my music".

Often even if being successful that way here, that doesn't necessarily mean you are making money, if it costs several hundred dollars to create the music. I know it's possible to make lots of money if you are great at it, I just don't know if I would get there. I've been more focused on making music I believe is truly good then throwing it on requests here at Taxi to see if anything sticks. I've gotten 10k or 20k streams on many songs on spotify/pandora, plus a few forwards here, so while I know that's not much, it's a start, and I'm learning, which is why I value y'all's opinions. With 4 kids in college as a single dad, I at least have more time, just not much money

Thanks for your reply!

[cosmicdolphin]

Yeah if I took out the "interesting" parts of my song, it would definitely have a better shot for Taxi, but would have little chance of getting noticed as a release.

The honest truth is any self release we put out there has a miniscule chance of being noticed amongst the other 60k tracks reported to be uploaded to Spotify each day. You're up against top talent on commercial labels with all the best Pro's working on their records and a huge marketing budget. You probably get one or two break though per decade from bedroom artist land. I tell you what does get unknown artists noticed though - being in a TV Show or Movie.

If I was a real Taxi pro, I could remove my musical influences from my songs, I'll have to see if I can. If not, Taxi probably isn't the place for me.

You don't have to completely remove your musical influences. Granted if you only listen to music from past decades you'll have a harder time sounding contemporary. But all artists are influenced by what came before, they just find a way to make it new, fresh and current.

I can't honestly say I've ever listened to Steely Dan but I bought my first record in 78 ( a great little song called My Perfect Cousin by The Undertones ) but the decades that influenced me the most musically were the 80's & 90's. I'm a huge fan of Depeche Mode so it's probably no coincidence my two top earning tracks are dark synth/tension. They don't sound dated or 80s - 90s but obviously the influences are there somewhere.

But you may be right about questioning whether Taxi is the right place for you personally . Taxi is just reflecting what's been asked for, they're not deciding what people want to listen to. It's a service industry and there are plenty who've tried and can't / won't give them what they need for a multitude of reasons. Sync generally follows what's popular in the charts although there are little niches for retro or more evergreen type music. It's not really a place for writing whatever your muse conjures up and trying to match your square peg of a song into the round hole of listing. It might work once in a blue moon and some are happy with those odds if they just get one track on TV. I'm here to build up a passive retirement income stream so that wouldn't work for me. Not everyone has the same goals though.

So bottom line is, if the point is that my little song has dissonance, some weird tension buildup, some outside chords/notes that a listener won't "get" upon first listen, yes, guilty as charged! That was my intention. I don't think any great song doesn't have that stuff. (not that I'm claiming mine is a great song necessarily)

A couple of points I would bring up. For TV & Film they don't have to be 'great' songs. They just have to be the 'right' song. A great song can acutally be a distraction sometimes when you put it against picture. The right song my be simpler but suports the scene better. You don't want it to take attention away from what's happening on screen. Also I would disagree that a great song it needs the things you mention. There are tons of great songs that if you analyzed them are pretty simple, and some of the best songs conenct with us immediately. Other songs are growers for sure and reveal themselves after multiple listens but in Sync they whizz by so quickly there isn't time to really absorb them.

Mark

[jerrybeirne]

I tell you what does get unknown artists noticed though - being in a TV Show or Movie.

I can't honestly say I've ever listened to Steely Dan but I bought my first record in 78

Mark

Thank you again so much for your thoughtful and spot-on reply. True that if my goal is to get "my" style of music listened to, getting exposure thru TV/Movies is a great path.

Re: Steely Dan, it's just pretty much agreed on by audiophiles that their album Aja is the best sounding album ever made with the best musicians at the time. Put on some good headphones or a great audio system and turn up the song Aja and I think you'll see what I mean.

Jerry