Should my paid producer also get co-writers credit/share???

[unitymusic]

I may be late to this discussion, but producers getting points (percentage of publishing, etc.. royalties so to speak) on records is nothing new, in fact has been standard for a long time. If you ever signed a real record deal your producer would not only get a percentage, there is a chance they would make more off of royalties than you (the writer).

Here is an excerpt from a book I had to buy for a music business class about 5 or 6 years ago. Granted a lot is changing quick in the music business, but it may help put it in perspective....

"ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THE MUSIC BUSINESS" by: Donald S. Passman

[taken from pp. 117-118]

"For whatever historical reasons, producers' royalties are computed more favorably than artists' royalties.

The biggest difference between artist and producer royalties is that producers, at some point, are paid for all records sold, meaning recording costs are not charged against their royalties. (As you know, recording costs are always charged against artists' royalties). These are called record one royalties, because they're paid from the first record ("record one") that the company sells. (All producers, of course, have to recoup any advances they have received, but if you think of these advances as a prepayment of royalties, this is the same as getting a royalty on all records).

Most producers' royalties are paid retroactive to record one after recoupment of recording costs at the net rate. What this means in English is that (a) recording costs are recouped at the artists' net rate (the all-in artist rate after deducting the producers' royalty--i.e., the artists' rate "net" of the producers royalty); (b) before recording costs are recouped, the producer gets no royalties at all (just like an artist); but (c) once recording costs are recouped, the producer gets paid on all sales made, including those used to recoup recording costs. In other words, once recording costs are recouped, the producer is paid from the first record sold (record one), and this payment is retroactive because the company "goes back" and pays on sales previously made that didn't bear royalties at the time of sale".

[end excerpt, pp. 117-118 of ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THE MUSIC BUSINESS by: Donald S Passman]


Not that you should give this guy more than you make if you're putting the record out yourself, but if this person is providing a legitimate production service and they're good, it should not matter how known or unknown they are, and that deal is not unusual assuming the numbers are not ridiculous, (i.e., only talking a few % of the price a single cd would sell for).

Aside from that, $500 is cheap for engineering 6 songs and arranging studio musicians, again depends on if the guy is good. If he is not go somewhere else, but if he is don't try to lowball him on every front. You would like to make some money off your product or service, so would he. At the very least, don't bash the guy for trying to follow what he may believe to be standard procedure and not sell himself short.

Last but not least, DON'T give him songwriter credit, a small percentage of publishing maybe if he is a good producer, but not writing credit.

Oh, and don't take my advice, I'm not a lawyer which is who you should probably talk to. This was my opinion and a direct quote from a book that I have. Best of Luck!

-Danny

[rnrmachine]

Hey Unity,

Thanks for the info and I would agree with what you are saying BUT nothing was stated about this guy learning from anyone, or having gone to a reputable school etc... It's been the contrary. Also, you are talking Pro standards there with union style payment from actual labels. Locally this guy might have impressed a few people, but I see nothing to warrant "full producer pay" let alone all the sharing he could dig into with that one line. Thankfully you agree about the co-writing.

I am sure you agree that a lot of this depends on "How good is this guy... really?" and since there are a number of connections out there, reaching out to people through the internet with pro results, but at only "working man fees" I can't recommend paying a local yocal that amount unless he really IS THAT GOOD, does he make good demos and that is all?! Or does this guy actually produce true BQ full blown albums with amazing, someday Grammy potential results?! From the sounds of it, I would wager it is good demos that are BQ at best... without any other info. Also, this guy is producing only.. Bridgette said the engineer is extra, she covers that cost too.

I can hire 50+ so called self proclaimed "session drummers" for $100 per song. Does it mean all are worth the $100? Some probably should pay you/us to get lucky enough to be on your/our album LOL. But the union rate is $650 last I saw, I haven't been in touch for a while with anything so I could be wrong. Anyway, So do I pay the $650 even though someone is only asking for $100? No... imho, just pay the $100 to the best drummer you can find and be done with it. There are plenty of producers out there, good ones, wanting your/our (Bridgette's) business.

If someone wants to be generous, be generous AFTER you make the money. You can always drop a "Thank you check" later. Only ever pay what you need to to get the quality you want. Nothing more.. if you feel guilty later because you made a lot of money. Like I said, "Thank You checks" work wonders.

Rob

EDIT: After visiting Bridgette's website... I now know why that line was put in the contract!! Jeez... wow...

[unitymusic]

I thought she said he was engineering the tracking and sending it off to be mixed. Was there a budget mentioned for mixing? Regardless, I wasn't suggesting that she give away rights to some "local yocal", or pay more than she has to for the results she wants. And yes I would totally agree it depends on how good the guy is. But if the distinction is Grammy quality material then this wouldn't be a discussion. There would be a label who hired a producer and end of story. But yes I agree with most of what you are saying, and you have a lot of good points.

-Danny

[rnrmachine]

Hey Danny,

I only mentioned Grammy because someone shot that level of "play" at me... saying I don't know this guy then started popping names out. Which to me, just distorted the issue. I think he was just playing "devil's advocate" for some odd reason... which all it would do is confuse the poor woman... imho.

Anyway... in his defense... you never know, some unknown person could get produced by some "Indie" producer that is unknown and the studio recorded in is unknown. But the song, once produced, IF good enough could win a Grammy someday... it's not out of the realm of possibilities. So in that sense I suppose ANYTHING is possible and MAYBE this guy would be worth that contract. In this day and age... It will not be long before someone produces their own crap in their basement and wins a Grammy for it... imho.

Mixing is always extra as far as I know, and that would be different then the engineer that does the actual recording work which is USUALLY different then the producer. Which I thought she said she had to pay extra for as well. But I don't have time to go back and check. Dinner time here and it's not that important. I told her that... IF she thinks he is worth more upfront money, then fine, offer a bonus to get that line out. Just never offer back end unless you are desperate and or the producer is worth it. And it sounds to me like she has the funds... to hire a number of producers with track records, so no need to be desperate. She should just shop around and see what she can find before committing. Just NEVER sign anything like that..imho

Rob

[unitymusic]

I totally agree with you. I think in this case I agree that contract is probably not worth it, so I apologize if I just confused the OP, or anyone else.

As far as the engineering it is not uncommon for the tracking engineer to be the same as the mix engineer, but probably not as common as someone different for each. Both are normally paid by the hour though instead of a package deal, so I was just pointing out that $500 for a 6 song package deal is cheap unless you are super prepared and can track a song completely in an hour or two. A more common studio price including mixing for a good 6 song demo would probably be closer to something with another zero at the end, and even then there would most likely be a time/hour cap and possibly not even production services.

I am a musician/songwriter first, but I graduated from Recording Arts school too so I see it from both sides. A lot of good engineers and studios (all but the top mostly) are struggling because of the continuous undercutting by not-so-good engineers. Then younger engineers who are good have to compete with that because they haven't proved themselves, then the pros have to compete with those select few because they are offering a good product for cheap. All this circles around to the musicians who wonder why it is so hard to make money off their music. Well the answer is because someone else will do it better and/or for cheaper.

-Danny

[rnrmachine]

Hey Danny,

No need to apologize imho. Arguing topics gives a 3D view of situations imho. I totally agree about the undercutting and that NEEDS to be taken into account. I want to say, the info that I am going by is, here on the Taxi forums, a number of folks have there songs done by studios and it cost $600 per song. And the stuff sounds GREAT!! Also, there are producers on the internet offering FULL production, start to finish, counting musicians, mixing and mastering, etc... and it ends up between $5000-$6000 per song. They have some serious credentials too. Now it don't seem like Bridgette will be paying that much with this guy, but I would bet in the end it is going to be close. Since she is covering EVERYTHING and the $500 to the producer is his fee only.

Anyway, onto you Danny... haha... can I pick your brain? I have done live engineering for years and was quite successful at it. No schooling other then real world experience. Same thing with my home studio work. I am presuming in your studies you learn many tricks in mixing? As well as mastering? There are a TON of questions I have for someone that graduated from school, but I will spare you from the barrage of questions I would like to ask and hop right onto on of my most perplexing ones. With singers... such as Ozzy and many others, what is that distinct sound in their vocal mix? It's obviously not in their natural voice although that helps, I suppose it could be from doubling, but I seem to not be able to achieve it when I double singers. I have tried chorus, delay, tons of EQ settings with doubling but I just can seem to get it. Apparently I am missing something and I am wondering if you learned it in school. Do I need a certain piece of equipment? Certain technique?

Thanks,

Rob

[unitymusic]

Rob,

I only graduated from recording school about a year and a half ago, so I am by no means an expert. One thing I learned though is that there is no magic box and no golden technique that will work for everything. The biggest factor that impacts a recording is the room/what is going on in the room (the musicians/performers). Next would be the mics, basically common sense, follow the signal flow from the source of the sound to it's destination.

As for Ozzy, I have no idea how he was recorded/mixed and people could come to that sound from a number of different ways, but only if they are working with Ozzy. Vocal doubling helps add fullness. Along these same lines parallel compression can help with that too, and can often retain more of the original dynamics than normal compression. High Pass Filters on vocal doubles can help remove muddiness and take out excess low end. Delay can work wonders when used as a reverb. Too much of anything is no good.

It would be hard to know exactly what should be recommended without first hearing it, but the most common mistakes I see (including in myself!) are misuse of EQ and compression, and too much reverb. Other than that I can't really go too far in depth, if you would like to post/send me a link to something in question I could maybe give you a better opinion. Or feel free to ask me to elaborate on anything I've said or you are wondering. I could try, but can't promise. The only rule of an engineer is "Make It Work". There is no rule how to do that.

-Danny

[rnrmachine]

Only rule is make it work...

I love it, haha. I was just curious how... here is a more up to date instance.... Vince Neil from Motley Crue don't sound at all the same live as he does in the studio. Sure it is still his voice but that one element I am talking about is missing. He still sounds cool live, it's just not the same imho. I am confident it is a doubling technique because it sounds that way, I am just a self taught person so the only tricks I know are in books I read, I found on the net or ones I made up, which are/where probably used somewhere but I had to make them up myself because no one taught me them. I often hear variations of the same technique in pop and rock. I just don't know what the heck it is... although I am going to figure it out sooner or later. LOL

Rob