singer/Songwriter piece gets the dreaded "J" label

[nicotina]

I've been sending music to Taxi for about a year, and have had a few forwards. I'm finally posting here because I recognize that I need help understanding what I'm doing wrong. I posted this song for the recent request for "Singer/Songwriter songs"- they wanted something similar to John Legend's "All of Me". I really tried to make my song and the recording fit that model- piano, R & B singer, lots of reverb and emotion.
https://soundcloud.com/vincent-s-nicotina/siren-song

The reviewer thought the song, recording, lyric, singer, and performance were very good, but returned it because he said it was off target, too "Jazzy" and "retro".
Here is my problem: it doesn't sound "jazzy" to me. So I need to know what I did wrong. I'm guessing that maybe it's because I may have a couple minor 9th's and a major seventh in there- but I could swear I hear John Legend doing that too on some of his tunes.

It would be easy for me to avoid extended chords in the next song- but I'm worried that maybe my way of constructing melodies is inherently old-fashioned. That's a more difficult thing to fix...

thanks in advance,

Vince

[cassmcentee]

From my ears to you... (I'm NO expert)
I'm thinking that the chords/notes at 0:38 to 0:44 drew to much attention to themselves and turned the reviewer off (would be easy to call that Jazz when writing/submitting for Film/TV).
My thinking regarding the "retro" perspective... Maybe a bit too much reverb? Maybe they wanted some more sounds to come in through the song's progression?
That's all I have...
Beautiful Tune and Wonderfully sung!!!
Cass

[steveboy]

Hi Vince,

I like this tune! And the other tunes on your soundcloud page, as well. You clearly have songwriting chops and, if that's your vocal and piano, performance skills aplenty. I give a pile of private lessons and the thing I hear myself telling my older students repeatedly is...everything you need to know is in the recording of the piece you're trying to learn. You just need to know where to listen. The thing that jumps out at me first is how static the vi IV I V verse progression is in the John Legend a la. Doesn't budge until the pre-chorus, kind of a clave rhythm. Then the pre-chorus is arpeggiated and has that little reference to the melody in the piano, just enough to set it apart a bit. I also notice how the JL a la doesn't have the melody landing on a downbeat until the chorus. It sort of dances around the middle of the measure through the verse and pre-chorus then lands solidly on the downbeat of the chorus with "All of me loves All of you" etc. I think if you spend some time listening for these details in the references you'll start to hear them clearly and come up with a list of things common to current songs in the genre. Then with a dispassionate ear compare your tune to the list. Not easy but necessary. A little like listening to a recording of last night's gig.

You might start by just using the I vi v IV part of your verse all the way through and re-write the melody not to be so centered on the downbeats. See how it feels when the chorus hits.

Hope the ideas help. Really do like the song! Look forward to hearing more of your stuff!

Best,
Steve

[ttully]

Hi Vince,
I agree with Cass.....it sounds fine until you stop playing chords and start the individual notes on the piano.
It totally draws your attention to the piano notes and away from the song.

My 2 cents.
Tim

[nicotina]

Thanks guys, that really helps. I already suspected the chords at :38 might be too much, so your comment confirmed it. Ironically, I was imitating JL when I decided to arppegiate those chords and add a 9th- but the way I do it is more dramatic then the way he did. Maybe I accented too heavily, and it pulls the reviewer away from the vocal. The comments about melody landing on offbeats is interesting- I hadn't thought of that at all but I will explore it. It is me playing piano, but I hired the singer. My piano teacher used to tell me the same thing you did: "the answers you seek are on the record".

[funsongs]

Cool song - had me wishing the Chorus popped out more, and was clearly THE (memorable) HOOK;
but maybe employing some of the advice given by the others would accomplish that.
That stated, for those few chords pointed out, the song certainly doesn't sound like Jazz to me;
but clearly in the playlist-arena of a John Legend-type of song.
Cheers.

[Len911]

Hmmm

Maybe it's more of the vocal style? I thought your recording was spectacular! It reminds me of Joe Jackson.
https://youtu.be/E22QXhJAiy0

John Legend and Adele fairly similar.

To me all of them and you are similar. I think maybe it's splitting hairs. JL and Adele a little more melisma in the vocal style, and you and Joe, a little more rockish vocals? Jazz? I guess Joe has been labeled jazzish, but I wouldn't call him a jazz singer.

I think you should continue what you are doing. It sounds fantastic! If you are hiring the vocals, I suppose you could try different styles maybe?

[nicotina]

Just a follow up on a couple of the comments:

1. I got interested in the comment about melisma, because I didn't think John Legend used a lot. I guess I was thinking about Mariah Carey type melisma, where it is slow an obvious. Boy, was I wrong. I ran "all of Me" through this app I used to use to study jazz piano, "Anytune Pro". If you slow it down to 25% speed you can start to hear all the details of Legend's vocal style. It's amazing how much melodic variation he gets on every note he lingers on. I'm not sure he is really doing riffs- it doesn't seem that controlled- but he'll vary the pitch constantly even on one syllable, or have a vibrato going back and forth between two notes (usually up a half step). It often goes briefly out of tune. For example, "what would I do without"- the word "without" has two pitches, sliding from a Bb to a C. "Drawing me in" has him using a fast vibrato on "me" between C and C# before landing on C. On "What's going on in that beautiful mind", he does a slide from Bb to C on "that" passing through B, so there are 3 notes in there! But all of this happens so fast, you can't hear it at 100% speed- you can just tell something is going on and it makes his voice compelling. Mind blown.

2. his vocal phrases seem to start on the "and " of two and end on the "one" for the verse

Thanks again- I'm going to do a lot of listening like this.

[steveboy]

Good ideas about melisma and vocal style in general. I think it's fascinating to dig into the details like this. So much to learn! Ralph Murphy must be the king of analyzing trends in popular music. If you haven't seen these or need a refresher check out his Taxi TV episodes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYtRxm7FLlU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhqnqyBDvhc

Happy listening!