Some ears needed for a couple of comments

[Russell Landwehr]

The screener's comments on a couple of returns have me puzzled.

https://soundcloud.com/russell-landwehr/barney-thug
"This recording had very little music in the center. The mix felt out of balance and would be a problem for broadcast or video situations where the center channel needs to be built up."

https://soundcloud.com/russell-landwehr ... bb-spencer
"This track as well. You put the melodic elements hard left leaving the piece to sound unbalanced."

Listening to broadcast TV I hear dialog in the center channel and underscore out on the sides. I've purposefully kept the center open for dialogue on this and a lot of others I've produced. THAT's what goes in the center channel in broadcast... dialogue... right?

And before you say... listing dependent... This (to me) is NOT an "off-target for the listing" "stylistic" comment but a general mixing comment.

I would prefer to avoid these kind of returns in the future... but what does this screener do when they get true LCR mixes?

Russell

[Gypsygal]

Wish I could make an intelligent comment, but purely from a listener's perspective, perhaps the problem
was more one of volume balance rather than panning per se, I mix a lot of stuff L or R to clear the pathway too,
but when those banjo/guitar clips come in the only observation is maybe the screener felt the volume was out of balance
in relation to the rest of the track more than anything, i.e. a touch too much gain on them. I am just
scraping the barrel here to make some sort of sense of it, they're both great and stylistically on target,
so that leaves very little to be desired. I'll be interested to see what others have to say because it is a bit of a puzzle.
-diane

[mobster85]

Definitely puzzling andtroublesome Russell. I usually only leave drums and bass in the middle but clearing the Center for dialogue Makes sense. I Think the tracks are right on in my opinion. As usual Great job.

[crs7string]

I have never had input from any library to mix so the center of the cue has less musical "information".

What you are possibly hearing while watching tv is the dialogue mixed at a higher level and dead center.

This could create the effect of the music seeming to be be panned hard left and right.

Chuck

[Paulie]

As a n00b I was not even aware of leaving the center open for dialog, but that makes perfect sense to me. Listening to the tracks the Barney panning sounds more blatantly panned than other, but not enough to distract. Then again, I'm mostly deaf in my right ear so panning differences are often hard for me to distinguish.

Perhaps you can call Taxi and speak with a head screener? Someone else recently did that and got a return reversed.

Great music as always.

[mobster85]

Definitely puzzling andtroublesome Russell. I usually only leave drums and bass in the middle but clearing the Center for dialogue Makes sense. I Think the tracks are right on in my opinion. As usual Great job.

[andygabrys]

Hey Russell,

I would go remix those two cues so the primary melodic / hooky stuff was in the center.

I would also do the low volume listening trick and see what pops out. the guitar on barney thug is pretty hot when I do that.

Also check the same on headphones - it exacerbates the unbalanced effect.

I have found that stuff like guitar that has a little hair on it can be almost buried in the middle and still be audible. You get this on some rock records too. The guitars are so big and loud on the sides, and the vocal is somewhat small in the center - but pretty audible - usually cause its been compressed to the nines and eq'd to pop out.

So talking LCR - most records that are LCR have doubled parts on the L and R. Or a part one side and ambience or something on the other like that early Van Halen records sometimes did. That is what helps them sound balanced.

EDIT - afterthought - It would be hard to find an instance of music being loud enough that the dialogue felt like it was in the doughnut hole. Most of the time the music is just pulled down so its not a distraction at all.

[Len911]

Russell, just recently I came across "cocktail party effect"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocktail_party_effect

The only thing I remember anyone ever saying at taxi was addressing the problem of having an instrument that might interfere or competing with dialog, not being broadcast quality.

I think maybe it might work for trailers??

To know for sure, I'd have to hear a show that had a familiar tune mixed regularly and then mixed with a hole in the middle and see if I could hear a difference.

If it's a rare method of mixing, I'm thinking it might be very noticeable. Especially, if your song was the only one in the show that way.

Russell, if it's a cocktail party, and you come mixed as a funeral just sayin'.

According to the cocktail party theory, unless there is a girl named Shiela, and the song has lyrics that keep calling for Sheila, if someone is distracted from the main dialog, it's probably because the show has more problems than how the music is mixed!

[hummingbird]

Interesting. I have never left the centre clear for dialogue in any of my mixes. This is the first time I've heard it mentioned in all my years doing this.

I've always either put the main melody or the main percussion track in the centre and built the low end around it, panning out to balance things... like if I had piano and flute, I would pan them opposite sides, for example.

I always heard and believed that one the reasons film/tv songs and instrumentals are mixed more evenly is so they can be turned down under dialogue and not lose the softer elements as per a traditional 'the centre must be forward in the mix' style.

One thing I do is set the volume of the instrument panned centre, and mute everything else but one, and set the volume on that track in comparison to the lead, going through until all have been done this way, then I listen to it full on again. I then work on managing the volumes of the low end tracks with each other, middle, top; and listen to it full on again. I'll mute the right side and just listen to the centre and the left. Stuff like that. I always run a mono off, and listen it to see how much depth and space I have in the mix. Then I go away and do something else for awhile to rest my ears, because I know my brain hears things that are/aren't there after I am too familiar. The next day I can listen back and see if it is balanced.

Anyway, didn't mean to write a book about my process lol. Interesting thread.

[crs7string]

One suggestion to hear how cues are mixed is , visit the websites of one of the "big boys":

Warner/Chappell Production Music
Megatrax
Killer Tracks

I know first hand that first two do the mixing for their cues. The composer sends them stems, the chief engineer does the mixing.

I'll be curious to hear how many reports we get about a "hole in the middle" of a cue.


Chuck