Throw Me a Bone here

[ephlat66]

Hi all-I've read these forums enough to know that whining creates backlash, and that what I should be about is pitching songs rather than pitching a fit. However, to quote Def Leppard, "I got somethin' ta say!"Over the last week or two, I've asked for feedback on a number of tracks, and in a few cases asked if tracks were a match for specific listings. I wonder if you'd allow me to indulge in a couple of observations and questions in this regard.By way of introduction: I have been writing and recording for the last two or three years, and I am not entering this game early in life. I began this endevour knowing nothing about the music business, but with a strong desire and enough chutzpa to make the attempt in spite of the people who've told me my whole life that I'm crazy for even considering it. It is my fondest dream to become a master of this stuff, and I am well aware that though I have progressed a great deal to this point, there is a learning curve yet. And praise God that's true! If I reach a point where there's nothing more to learn, then it's time to find something else to do.So, having said all that:First observation: Of all the people who've given feedback, only two have ever had the balls to post a link and brace themselves for very tough (albeit very necessary) criticism. In looking up the posts for all the others, the only thing they've ever done is criticize. So c'mon guys! Nut up and put yourself out there!Second observation: I have discovered that even the folks on this forum who are veterans ask for feedback, and often with respect to what they are planning to submit for specific listings. I find this to be highly instructive as well as encouraging.Now, a question or two:Humminbird (whose beautiful music I LOVE!) commented that I should become familiar with the alas Rob Thomas, Kelly Clarkson). The song link is this: http://www.taximusic.com/song.php?song_ ... &stream=1I thought I was quite familiar with these artists. Now, you may not personally like this song or the way it's recorded (i've been told by numerous people to record "drier" - i'm cool with that - one of the things I need to know) but my question is, how is this structurally and stylistically different from, say, Rob Thomas' "Ever The Same"? The lyrics are syncopated similarly. It's a VCVCBC structure. The beat itself (percussion track) is quite similar to my ear. Humminbird said it was Dylan-esque folk-rock. Huh? I'm not arguing with that, I just don't understand. (And I decided to be complimented by being compared to Dylan )I have only ever written one song which can remotely be called Country. It's this: http://www.taximusic.com/song.php?song_ ... 7&stream=1. Again, I'm very familiar with all of today's country artists and the fact that the lines between country and rock continue to blur. One person commented that this song was too "rock" for a listing for country/rock for a singer with a "rocker's edge". I submitted it to a different listing, and the taxi screener called it "alt country" Again, huh? Not being familiar with "alt country" i listened to some, and can't find any similarity to my song. So maybe this ain't country. (although I this thread http://taxi.proboards27.com/index.cgi?b ... 1189431116 has 99 posts on the subject, with no clear agreement) But again, how is this song stylistically and structurally unlike Dierks Bently "Every Mile a Memory". If I added steel guitar, banjo or fiddle would that make it country? I don't know. I'm not suggesting that my songs are as strong as the ones I've alluded to. More compelling lyrics and melodies are a goal that we all share! But apparently there is something else I'm missing in addition to talent - just plain understanding of what makes the genre the genre. Thanks for reading this looong post. And thanks in advance for helping me on my way.(I will get this. As God is my witness I will. And turn some heads in the process. )Don GreenPS - Now, you lurkers out there... let's hear some of YOUR sh*t if you're so smart!

[hummingbird]

Just an added note. I did say I don't consider myself an expert, and I provided a link to some notes from the Rally re Hot A/C.You submitted -- http://www.taximusic.com/song.php?song_ ... 5&stream=1 for this listing "HOT AC / MODERN POP SONGS in the general range of Rob Thomas, Kelly Clarkson, Pink, Five For Fighting, Natasha Bedingfield, etc. are sought by the Sr. VP of Creative at a large Independent Publisher. He's seeking great hit songs to pitch to today's biggest Pop/Hot AC stars like those mentioned above. Amazing lyrics, hooks, and choruses are all essential."This is a very high bar listing and IMHO your submission will be off target. It is crucial when pitching songs that the vocals be spot on, and again, IMHO, they need some tweaking.

[Casey H]

Hi DonI agree with you. People should exchange reviews and critiques and be prepared to have their stuff reviewed right here. It also adds credibility when you know something about the person giving you feedback. I'm coming out of a long dry spell an expect to have new music by myself or with co-writers in 2008. I haven't posted much of my own music here for quite a while because there hasn't been anything new. My current material was posted here a long time ago. New music will be here, front and center for shredding... Vikki is amazing. She always puts her stuff out her for comments and freely gives a lot of her time to giving feedback to others.BTW, if you want, feel free to review one of my songs here. Just ask me... Honest constructive feedback is a good thing- we all have to hear both the good and the bad.Regards, Casey

[Casey H]

Quote:Just an added note. I did say I don't consider myself an expert, and I provided a link to some notes from the Rally re Hot A/C.You submitted -- http://www.taximusic.com/song.php?song_ ... 5&stream=1 for this listing "HOT AC / MODERN POP SONGS in the general range of Rob Thomas, Kelly Clarkson, Pink, Five For Fighting, Natasha Bedingfield, etc. are sought by the Sr. VP of Creative at a large Independent Publisher. He's seeking great hit songs to pitch to today's biggest Pop/Hot AC stars like those mentioned above. Amazing lyrics, hooks, and choruses are all essential."This is a very high bar listing and IMHO your submission will be off target. It is crucial when pitching songs that the vocals be spot on, and again, IMHO, they need some tweaking. I agree with Vikki. This track is not even close to the style of the artists mentioned. That doesn't make it a bad song! It just means it's not a fit here. So even with a perfect vocal performance, this isn't the listing to pitch it for.One thing that is always suggested is that you spend some time on a site like amazon or iTunes and sample the "a la" artists. Keep switching back and forth between your track and the samples. It should be fairly obvious if you are in the ballpark.But take this track in a direction that seems appropriate for it. Maybe something retro? A film/TV replacement track for another artist? Who might it sound like? It has a lot of potential.Warmest, Casey

[ephlat66]

Thanks for the input! And Vikki please, please, please don't feel defensive. I welcome your feedback more than most. Before I started this thread, I read the notes you referenced. They were helpful, I just need more help!(Also- since you bring it up - I hope to be a great songwriter someday. Being a great singer is not in my plans, because I think it's unlikely So the only tweaking I can do to the vocals is to have someone else do them. Not sure I have the cash for that, but if that's what's required then so be it.)

[matto]

Quote:First observation: Of all the people who've given feedback, only two have ever had the balls to post a link and brace themselves for very tough (albeit very necessary) criticism. In looking up the posts for all the others, the only thing they've ever done is criticize. So c'mon guys! Nut up and put yourself out there!Hmm Don, I don't quite follow your reasoning here. You've been posting your songs and asking for critiques, correct? So, that's what you're getting. As far as I could see you didn't specify that only people who also posted their own stuff could critique your material, so it seems a bit strange that you're accusing them of not having "balls" Some people like to post their material here for forum members to critique, others don't. Nothing wrong with either approach as far as I can see... Quote:Humminbird (whose beautiful music I LOVE!) commented that I should become familiar with the alas Rob Thomas, Kelly Clarkson). The song link is this: http://www.taximusic.com/song.php?song_ ... &stream=1I thought I was quite familiar with these artists. Now, you may not personally like this song or the way it's recorded (i've been told by numerous people to record "drier" - i'm cool with that - one of the things I need to know) but my question is, how is this structurally and stylistically different from, say, Rob Thomas' "Ever The Same"? The lyrics are syncopated similarly. It's a VCVCBC structure. The beat itself (percussion track) is quite similar to my ear. Humminbird said it was Dylan-esque folk-rock. Huh? I'm not arguing with that, I just don't understand. (And I decided to be complimented by being compared to Dylan )It can be difficult at first to hear all the things that define a genre, because there are so many of them...Lyrics, both what is said and how it is said, can be a defining characteristic.Intrumentation of course. Chord progression; or the way a melody is constructed.A singers voice and delivery.Production and arrangement, like what the individual instruments play and how they lock in together, and engineering, what they sound like and how dry or wet or dark or bright or in your face the overall recording is.It can be hard to keep track of all of those things at first. And the problem is that if just one of those elements is off by a significant amount, you're already off genre. If several are off you are way off, even if some elements match the style.In the case of your "a la Rob Thomas" song, you start off with a repeated I-IVmi6 progression. This particular progression sounds very dated as it is virtually never used in contemporary pop music. So right from the beginning you're off on an important element. That progression dictates an equally dated melody. Add to that the vocal delivery and voice itself, which are not contemporary, and the overly reverberated vocals and echoing background voice, and you've got more strikes lined up against you. The lyric also sounds unlike any modern pop song in it's tone...it's sounds like something Clapton might've written in the 70s perhaps.At this point the song is off genre in so many elements that it really sounds nothing like Rob Thomas...even though the structure and beat are in the ballpark.As far as your "a la Dierks Bentley" song, you say yourself it could only remotely be called country. Well, then it's probably not .Compare the content and tone of the lyrics. Dierks' song is full of vivid imagery describing a scene, yours is entirely different in tone, the only thing remotely "country" in your entire first verse is the word truck. The strumming pattern on your acoustic guitar track is unlike anything recorded in Nashville in the last 15 years at least, it sounds very old fashioned, but not even old fashioned country really, more like old Lou Reed or something.Another thing that sounds quite dated is that quick I-IV-I at the end of some of your sections.Your verse melody is very clearly chopped into very predictable same length phrases, almost like you had to first hear the chord before you could decide what to sing. This is very rarely done in today's melodies, pretty much in any style as a matter of fact. Melodies are more surprising or "sophisticated" in how they relate to the underlying chord changes in contemporary music in general.So once again, you've got so many element lined up against you that it doesn't even matter that your song's basic concept could work as a country song.So I think the key is to understand that there are many elements that come together to define a genre, and they all have to be "right" for a song to really fit that genre.I think the mistake just about all relative newcomers make (and yes you are not AT ALL alone in this ) is that they hear one or two element in their songs that sound like "country" or "modern rock" and therefore assume that's what the whole song must be.When in fact, in many cases, the song isn't in ANY clearly defined genre, and that's why you'd get conflicting opinions from listeners, depending on their own individual backgrounds.So my advice is to really listen in depth when you "research" musical genres. Listen to each element of a song and try to figure out what's happening. And, to really be able to define a style for yourself to the point where you can write something in it with confidence, you have to analyze LOTS of songs in that style and quite literally "inundate" yourself with it for a while.Hope this helps...it's up to you whether you want to consider it even though I haven't posted one of my own songs in response. matto

[johnnydean1]

I think some of your stuff sounds like Floyd and some just defies description.Feel free to review some of my stuff,just do a search for johnny bean.Your right about one thing,matto won't post his stuff here cause he might get his balls chewed off! AND his real name is Matto Horn and he can be found playing trumpet on the top of a mountain in Switzerland.

[Casey H]

The funny thing much more often is the opposite scenario. People come here and ask for their songs to be reviewed but don't reciprocate by reviewing other people's material. That is much more disappointing than what you mentioned.BTW, some very successful folks may be reluctant to post tracks here publicly because everything here turns up in Google searches and for professional and/or confidentiality reasons that can create a conflict for them. Casey

[ddusty]

Hey Don,Here is another reason people don't post their songs in your critiques.Some people don't take criticism well, then the original poster goes out of their way to rip a song that no one asked for their opinion on.Like Matto said, you asked for a critique, not a song contest.Another thing to keep in mind with the a la's. You need to look at the group of a la's and not just one of the artists.I am not familiar with the Rob Thomas song you modeled after, but with other a la's like Kelly Clarkson and Pink, they are probably looking for the crossover/pop hit. Not knocking you, I understand that you had some questions that needed answering. Hopefully this helps a little.Rob

[matto]

Quote:Your right about one thing,matto won't post his stuff here cause he might get his balls chewed off! Just for the record, I wasn't attacking Don here, I just found that statement to be a little illogical. Nor did I think he was talking about me...maybe I should have? Btw Don, just FYI, the reason I rarely post music here to be critiqued by the forum membership is not because I'm afraid or because I think I'm somehow too good for it...it's because about 90% of the music I write in a given year is comissioned by various clients I work for, and so posting it here makes little sense since the only opinion that really matters is that of the person who's paying me to write it.matto