Verse phrasing .. the same .. or a bit different

[deantaylor]

Hey, what do you all think of this quote from a pro critiquer. ""There are some slight phrasing differences in some of the lines in the verses. Its very important that each line of each verse phrase be the same as the same line in every other verse, especially in country songs. Think of it like a template. If verse one is the template, lay it over the top of the other verses and make sure that each lines lines up the same. Otherwise the song will probably get passed on. ""Man, I always like it when the verses are close enough, but not cookie-cutter the same. I like a bit of variety. I have never heard this advice applied so unyieldingly to any genre, even country. Is this really true about country, other genres? What do you like, personally? What do you think is best, commercially?Thanks,Dean

[matthoggard]

I read that in Cam's post. Im with you Dean. I think that the patterns should be close but not EXACT. How boring would that be. Ill get my thesaurus and use it all my songs so that my rymes and phrasing are perfectly matched.

[silvercord]

right!its those differences in the phrasing where it feels great to singalong. don't you think? There are those of us out there that need some phrasing flavour!! "a long December" by the Counting Crows is one tune thatcomes to mind(i know its not country, though)have a great weekend, all!peacegeoff

[cameron]

Glad to see I stirred up the pot a bit. Personally, I think someone who would say such a thing is not a decision maker, but someone who is saying just what they think their boss wants. There's probably a lot of them in middle management though, so it could very well be a valid point as you've often got to get through them to get to the decision maker. I hold to my opinion that someone either likes a song or they don't, and anyone who would not pick-up a good song because of something stupid like phrasing differences is either an idiot or looking for an excuse to turn down a song they really didn't like anyway.Cam

[claire]

Oh they'll find any excuse to pass on a song. Your syllable count in line two of verse two isn't the same as in line two of verse one. Don't like the demo singer. Don't like the word "Blue" (I've actually gotten that one). Don't like songs with girls names in the title, locations in the title, questions in the title. Your intro is too long. Your intro is too short. You name it, they'll find it. You sit in enough pitch meetings and after a while you recognize that as soon as someone says "who's your demo singer?" that means they're passing on the song but want to say something nice so you don't start bleeding from the eyes right there in front of them.The thing is - it's not personal. They're all apt to be wrong about a song, they've all passed on what eventually turned out to be a hit song, they'll all admit to having been that stupid. So you smile and you say thank you and you hope the thought balloon above your head isn't visible. And you go home and you write another song.With all due respect, and I mean this in the most non-confrontational way possible, for those of you who admit up front that you don't write country, you don't know what the guidelines are and how formulaic the genre can be. Commercial country, that is. Alternative, Americana, etc., they can get away with all kinds of things that commercial radio-based country cannot. When you guys say that you don't write country but you think that there ought to be this or there ought to be that, it's like my saying that I think rock lyrics ought to be understandable and make sense. They aren't and they don't, but I don't write in that genre so what I think doesn't change what is.Claire

[cameron]

Hey Claire,I know you're as miffed by all this as anyone, but doesn't it just seem crazy that someone would pass on an otherwise good song because they didn't like the demo singer? I still think that's just an excuse for a song that just doesn't grab them.Cam

[deantaylor]

Claire,Do you write your country songs like this, so that all the verse phrasing is exactly the same, like this guy says?I have never heard this advice applied so unyieldingly to any genre, even country. So, do you think it is true? Do commercial country songs need to be written this way to get cut?DeanPS Thanks Cam for letting me steal your review comments. PSS Matt, Geoff, thanks for leaving your opinion. I agree with you Geoff, sometimes that can be a 'hook' to me, that little cool difference in phrasing that you remember easily and can't stop singing.

[claire]

Do you write your country songs like this, so that all the verse phrasing is exactly the same, like this guy says?-----------------------------No, not exactly the same but pretty darned close. Almost exactly the same. There is no one rule, not even in country, but when you listen to what's getting cut and what's going to number one, the phrasing is the same in each verse. You can get away with a bit of variation but again, the idea is to get that rhythm inside the listener's head - and one of the ways of doing that is to keep the phrasing the same. If you send in a song to a critique service and it's a country song and there's obvious phrasing differences between the verses (and I don't think it's that big a deal in Cam's song), you're going to hear about it from the reviewer.And Cam, yeah it gets old sometimes. You just figure they're wrong, you're right, their loss, move on. At least they're not sitting there in front of a room full of people and saying "I hate this song - what a piece of crap". They just don't like the demo singer! As far as I'm concerned, the Taxi screeners are wrong concerning my songs about 75% of the time. Maybe more Claire

[Casey H]

Dec 19, 2008, 8:01pm, claire wrote:Oh they'll find any excuse to pass on a song. Your syllable count in line two of verse two isn't the same as in line two of verse one. Don't like the demo singer. Don't like the word "Blue" (I've actually gotten that one). Don't like songs with girls names in the title, locations in the title, questions in the title. Your intro is too long. Your intro is too short. You name it, they'll find it. You sit in enough pitch meetings and after a while you recognize that as soon as someone says "who's your demo singer?" that means they're passing on the song but want to say something nice so you don't start bleeding from the eyes right there in front of them.The thing is - it's not personal. They're all apt to be wrong about a song, they've all passed on what eventually turned out to be a hit song, they'll all admit to having been that stupid. So you smile and you say thank you and you hope the thought balloon above your head isn't visible. And you go home and you write another song.With all due respect, and I mean this in the most non-confrontational way possible, for those of you who admit up front that you don't write country, you don't know what the guidelines are and how formulaic the genre can be. Commercial country, that is. Alternative, Americana, etc., they can get away with all kinds of things that commercial radio-based country cannot. When you guys say that you don't write country but you think that there ought to be this or there ought to be that, it's like my saying that I think rock lyrics ought to be understandable and make sense. They aren't and they don't, but I don't write in that genre so what I think doesn't change what is.ClaireThis is not about taxi but more in general.You bring up so many good points. I used to call what you describe as the "Tootsie" syndrome based on the Dustin Hoffman movie. In the beginning of the movie, he's desperately trying to land a job as an actor and it's-- too tall, too short, too warm, too cold, too hard, too soft, etc, etc... That's how he comes to audition as a woman... Makes me laugh... I am one of those "don't write country" folks. So my song feedback is limited in this genre. I tend to point out what I think are obvious no-brainer problems or whether to not the hook grabs me.Your experience in "in-person" pitches is valuable to share and, to me, it also re-reinforces the power of personal relationships as far as success. My guess (as someone who has NOT been there) is often those excuses not to take a song have a large component in politics and personal friendships. That's why I think that to make it as a Nashville writer, you probably really do have to live there-- eat, drink, and breathe it 24 x 7. It's no different than successful music libraries often being located in the LA areas where they truly build personal relationships with the film/TV music supervisors. Not saying, no one makes it any other way... just increased odds in what's already a power ball lottery!It also reinforces my personal theory about the country high-bar thing (as a naive rocker, I totally admit )... Again, not about taxi...Once a song gets to a certain level of excellence, where it is an "8" or "9" on a scale of 1-10... NOT taxi's scale just an expression, it will all be gray and a matter of opinion, personal taste, politics, etc, etc. Often you can tell when all feedback is really good but there is absolutely no consistency as to what would make it better.I also believe that with the right connections, if a song has a killer hook but 1-2 VERY minor issues elsewhere, it could succeed-- but that "right connections" caveat is a huge one.As far as taxi, I think the thing is... They have to keep their reputation with Nashville publishers way up there as an outsider... They have to be very gun-shy about sending anything that might hurt there chances of future listings. So, the screener, when they reject something, does believe in all their heart and soul (and training) that the song isn't at the "high bar" level. But, there can't be an exact science there once something is at the damn good level IMHO. Not complaining or criticizing, just explaining what I think...I advise people this all the time. Keep pitching through taxi. Use the feedback as best as possible to become the best writer you can be. If your songs are getting ultra-high marks but not forwards ("almost there"), while you continue working on your craft, do some pitching on your own. Taxi should be one of many ways you market yourself. It's YOUR career. And, maybe one taxi screener's "almost" is a publisher's "yes"... It's certainly worth exploring. I'm glad I don't write country! My syllable counts never line up! Best, Casey

[deantaylor]

Dec 20, 2008, 4:06am, claire wrote:Do you write your country songs like this, so that all the verse phrasing is exactly the same, like this guy says?-----------------------------No, not exactly the same but pretty darned close. Almost exactly the same. There is no one rule, not even in country, but when you listen to what's getting cut and what's going to number one, the phrasing is the same in each verse. You can get away with a bit of variation but again, the idea is to get that rhythm inside the listener's head - and one of the ways of doing that is to keep the phrasing the same. If you send in a song to a critique service and it's a country song and there's obvious phrasing differences between the verses, you're going to hear about it from the reviewer.ClaireThanks Claire. Very helpful. I had never run across this country 'rule' before. So, when I saw it, I was skeptical .. I thought maybe the reviewer had it wrong or was taking it a little too seriously. Thanks for shedding some light on it from your experience.Has anyone else run across this Nashville 'rule' before in your song reviews or in advice from articles/books/etc?Dean