TAXI.com

Simple question really..I've been listening to my playlists and noting the times that the chorus first comes in, and it's always before 1:10 for every single song. I was wondering if there were any popular singles/songs that broke that trend. Even songs that are on the long side (4:30 - 5:00 minutes long) seem to follow that rule as well.

-Jeff

Hey Jude.

You ask in past tense, and for sure not every single have the chorus come in that fast, but you gotta consider the proper framework for this question.

The reason why choruses need to come in quick is because radio listeners are zapping you real fast, if you don't hook them. So (1) the 'clock tyranny' mainly applies for Radio hit singles. Secondly, it's also about listeners expectation to the particular genre, and in pop hit singles you'll need the chorus to come in, not before 1:10, but before :50 and preferably :35. In rock and country I think you'll have slightly more sec's, but not many. In death metal... I just don't know, and will be burned in hell But for music aimed at radio (and not all are), if the song title AND the chorus is not within 1min, there better be a damn good reason (perhaps due to the lyrics or arrangement), as this is something a&r consider as basics.

There's a whole science supporting these 'rules' (The former company Polyphonic HMI now in the shape of Uplaya: http://uplaya.com/about_hss/hsstech . Read a blog from songwriter Andrea Stolpe on this here http://andreastolpe.berkleemusicblogs.c ... -hit-song/ ), and they are about the RADIO FORMAT, and has nothing to do with song quality nor craft. For songs to be eligible on the Radio, they just need to comply to the format they require. Same thing with listings for production music, and other genres. Format is very much based on commercial requirements, because the music has to be used in a specific context.

In the book Futurehit DNA, the author discusses the reasons and prospects of this subject in commercial music http://www.amazon.com/Futurehit-DNA-Jay ... 0615285708 check it out.

Im not saying that I agree well with this, only that in commercial music you HAVE to deal with the format requirements of clients. If there's any learning from doing Taxi, this is one of them, IMO. The Beatles were well aware of this, and Hey Jude is NOT a representative example, as it's written in the AABA form (verse, verse, bridge, verse) and therefor doesn't have a chorus section at all.. How about:

Love me do, chorus at :28
She loves you, chorus at :13
Eight day's a week, chorus a:34
Ticket to ride, chorus at :34
Goodbye hello, chorus at :38
Get back, chorus at :39
(this analysis was made by James Linderman, article found at SongU)

Aledgedly John and Paul used to makes jokes about writing a 'swimmingpool', so I believe they were VERY well aware of commercial song forms, and what works ect.

Song form and commercial formats are not anti-art, they are just means to help you understand commercial requirements, helping you to get your music to the places you want it to be. When you're a band and play live, you have the listeners where you want them, and can play 25min versions, if you please (just make sure they have enough beer ), but in radio you don't have listeners tunen into you and YOU have to hook them in. Not an easy task when all they want is local news and forecasts, according to ASCAP VP Ralph Murphy http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6305592 .

Simple or not.. just a couple inputs from me (nocentsinvolved)

thesongcabinet wrote:Hey Jude is NOT a representative example, as it's written in the AABA form (verse, verse, bridge, verse) and therefor doesn't have a chorus section at all..

It fits my defintion, and is one hell of a chorus for me!

It's been a "rule" for quite a while that getting to the chorus before 1:00 is necessary. As others said, listeners attention spans before they hit the change station button are short. If you can't hook folks in the first minute, you usually won't get a chance to ever hook them. A&R people (inlcuding film/TV library folks many times) listen the same way. They listen to hundreds of songs a week, maybe more. That doesn't lend itself to a lot of patience. For this reason, long intros should be avoided too. If you chew up the first 25 seconds with intro, there isn't much time left for a verse and chorus in the first minute. An old saying is "get to the chorus, don't bore us"...

Are there songs of yesterday or even today that break this rule? Of course... If you can write something that is so unbelievably compelling from the get-go, people will stay tuned. Most of us don't write many (or any) like that even if we think we do.

Among the things that pros listen for are:

Verse catches your attention, draws you in
Pre-chorus, shows lift and tension build
Chorus hook is well differentiated musically, often with higher notes than verse
All of the above in less than one minute

Casey

thesongcabinet wrote: Simple or not.. just a couple inputs from me (nocentsinvolved)

A really excellent post BTW.

I am one of those people who really don't mind writing to a bit of "forumula". It helps me focus on what I need to do to make a song as strong as possible or maybe let it go. I tend to go with V-PC-C-V-PC-C-B-instr-C with the chorus coming in before 1:00. Using a format like this helps me run basic tests on what I have.... Is there a climb to the chorus? Does the chorus hook you when you first hear it, etc.... (I definitely don't always succeed!)... And lyrically it forces me to see if I can tell the story in 2 v's, 2 c's and a bridge.

So, I know some people fight "formulas" but I think working this way can make us better writers. If forces us to focus on certain basic skills like making every line count, for example.

An aside..... How 'bout those songs which have such a great chorus that the song opens with it? "Build Me Up Buttercup", "Can't Buy Me Love", etc...

Casey

thesongcabinet wrote: The Beatles were well aware of this, and Hey Jude is NOT a representative example, as it's written in the AABA form (verse, verse, bridge, verse) and therefor doesn't have a chorus section at all.

Well, no, the "Hey Jude" chorus is the part that goes, "Naaaah, naah-na nanana-naah...", etc. The chords don't change, but the melody does. Probably the biggest and certainly the longest Beatles chorus ever. Not representative, though, fershure. And how 'bout "Help!"-chorus at the top? Underscores the point that if you're going to turn the rulebook on its head, you'd better be as good as The Beatles. Like the woman said, "You can't break the rules, 'til you know how to play the game."

Hey Mojo
I wouldn't consider that ending "na na" section of Hey Jude a chorus. I'd call it more of a "section"... Personally I think they should have left that off-- it ruined an otherwise beautiful song. If you leave off that part, it's clearly an AABA (or similar depending on repeats) format song.

Interestingly, the opening section of "Help" is not THE chorus. It's an another "section". The real chorus is after each verse. The Beatles just wrote great hooks in all types of sections and formats. Not that many of their songs have verse/chorus format.

Casey

Casey H wrote:I wouldn't consider that ending "na na" section of Hey Jude a chorus. I'd call it more of a "section"... Personally I think they should have left that off-- it ruined an otherwise beautiful song.

It is a chorus in the truest sense of the term. If you perform this song at a gig (which I have before) the whole room starts to buzz with every one singing together (i.e. in a chorus). It's the best part of the song...no the worst..

thesongcabinet wrote:Song form and commercial formats are not anti-art, they are just means to help you understand commercial requirements, helping you to get your music to the places you want it to be.

Very good point Magne!

Stuart