TAXI.com

OK, I've decided I want to take the plunge from being just an instrumental composer to being a songwriter as well.As a composer, I understand song form, rhyme scheme, and all that, and actually, I've written the music for many songs. In fact, I've written the entire vocal score for 3 musical theater shows, all of which have been produced on stage -- two of the shows have been produced in multiple theaters over the past 15 years.But, I'm now interested in taking ahold of the lyric reins, as well as the music. In particular, since my career has specialized in musical theatre over the past 20 years, I have two shows rolling around in my head that I want to get down on paper.Here's my problem. I need some tips on getting started. When I think of starting a song, the whole task seems so daunting -- especially when I think of writing the lyrics to an entire musical theatre production (or, 2 productions, actually!). Adding to my angst, my lyric heros are Stephen Sondheim, Stephen Schwartz, and Lynn Ahrens, who are heavyweights in the musical theatre world. So, whenever I try to put some rough lyric down, I automatically compare what I wrote to their lyrics. It's really hard for me not to do that.On the other hand, when I write the music, I tend to break things down into smaller chunks: I often sit at the piano or computer and figure out the emotion or groove first, then the melody, then the harmony, or sometimes vice versa, then the instrumentation, and it all grows bit by bit. And, I don't usually start comparing my work to Sondheim's or Jason Robert Brown's until the music is getting closer to completion.But, I don't have enough experience with lyrics yet to do that. How do you songwriters break your lyric-creation process down into bite-size chunks that you can deal with easily? Or is the process more haphazard than the music end of things?Thanks for your advice!Kevin

I think that's a really big question, Kevin. And there really are no two ways about it (there are hundreds!), so it's pretty hard to be helpful on this. You just have to go with what gives you the best workflow, just like composing. And I've learned that workflow is a really personal thing.It would depend a lot what genre you write and for whom you write, too. And it's much like composing.I'm a country writer foremost, and I mostly start with my list of titles. I search all over for those, and jot down the ones I feel can be the concept of a great song.Then I pick one, sometimes get a drum loop going, play a chord progression to it and start improvising the melody to the title. Then I might just play around for a while and start writing the rest of the chorus or refrain.For country I try to write like people talk in the southern US. Sometimes I write from particular artist bio's, sometimes more freely.But basically the breakdown is line by line: title first, then chorus, then verses and bridge last, if needed. I pay a lot of attention to melody, so if a line doesn't sing well, I rewrite it on the spot, no matter how clever it is.This is just one of my processes, though, and they are often more messy than this sounds.I'll bet others have a bunch of other approaches too!

Well, I was afraid of that -- me having to figure out my own work flow. But, that helps, actually, knowing that the workflow of lyrics is sort of a personal thing. Thanks for responding.And, I like the Title-first approach. That's a great idea.

Kevin, I think you're getting some good advice.For myself, every song I write is different. Most experts suggest starting with your title/hook but sometimes I get a thought that makes a better first line and work from there down. Often I ramble for a while until I figure out what I'm trying to say. Once I know what that is, it can flow all the way to the end or it may take a lot of trial and error until I get even a small aha moment.For musical theater, the book can dictate what your lyrics need to be. If you can cut lines from the script and have the characters say them in their songs, that works best for the show. If you already have your basic musical composition, that will determine a lot of the words and phrases because your rhythm and melody will lead you to write lyrics that sound like normal conversation as they are sung. In my opinion, comparing your lyrics to Stephen Sondheim, Stephen Schwartz, and Lynn Ahrens is a great way to go. Looking at what moves me in others' lyrics is a great way for me to figure out what to use in my own -- not the words, but the way they are put together.I trust you already know the proper forms for all types of songs, especially if you have already written the scores for shows.Good luck and have fun.

Kevin,If you study lyric writing, usually the workflow goes something like this:1. Do free writing for a timed period, like 10 minutes, about the story, subject or title. Bring as much color, sensory images and metaphor to your writing as you can. Be free and keep writing during that time.2. Read what you wrote and underline interesting ideas and words. 3. Use these word lists to seed lists of rhyming works. Look up rhymes using your head, a rhyming dicitionary, software or an online resource. When looking up rhymes look for new words that fit, support or expand the story idea.4. Identify the song title (or working title) and start composing lines to for one song section. The chorus is often a good place to start. The title often appears in the chorus as an opening or closing line so you might want to try incorporating the title into the chorus.5. The chorus is usually more general and the verses more specific. Try incorporating sensor details and metaphors into the verses. Each verse should bring in new ideas and may expand the meaning of the chorus. The bridge works like a verse but takes a big step back to deliver the message, plot twist, lesson or big picture.6. When you have a draft of all the song sections the verses might need to be adjusted to match in rhyme scheme and syllable stress patterns. Most songs and lyrics at the professional level are re-written several times to improve the integrity and interest. That may involve going back to step one or working with a co-writer to get more input.7. Musically and lyrically it is often best to get good contrast between sections. If there are a lot of words in verse then chorus might have less words per line.8. If you want to sound more modern than the influences you listed, you might want to take a look at current songs to reference your lyric writing as well. Modern verses lyrics don't tend to start on the down beat during the a verse and have less of pause at the end of each line. Modern lyric rely less son perfect rhyme couplets and often use near rhymes or have more non-rhyming lines.Some great resources:Books: (Both of these books outline a workflow similar to what I wrote above)Writing Better Lyrics - by Pat PattisonPopular Lyric Writing - Andrea StolpeCourse:Lyric Writing: Tools and Strategies - Berkleemusic.comRhyming Look-ups:http://www.rhymezone.com/www.LilacWriter.com * (*disclaimer... I am involved in the development of this website)

Kevin, are you planning to write songs in any specific genre? I got the impression you were specifically looking at lyrics for musical theater. Maybe I misunderstood.

I'd say Robin Frederick's site on songwriting is a gem http://www.robinfrederick.com/ . Her book is as contemporary as anything out there too. But you might not want to studi HIT songwriting, which is a whole different beast (allthough it's very useful).Perhaps more related to the writers you mention.. Ira Gershwin has also written one called "Lyrics on Several Occasions" with stories about the processes of his lyrics. Not really a book about how to write, but with great insight in the processes of writing.

Bill:Those are some really great tips! Thank you. I love the idea of free writing! I know, that probably sounds very basic to all of you, but this is the kind of thing I was looking for. Telling myself to "write some lyrics" is intimidating. But, telling myself to free write for 10 minutes is a very doable task, and I can see how that could generate lots of great ideas that I can then shape using the rest of your bullet points. Also thanks for the links. I'll definitely check them out.Bete:Yes, you are right. I'm mostly focused on musical theatre writing. Here's the thing: I've written music in other genres before, but I have two friends in particular who chuckle at me a lot. Every time I write a rock song, let's say, they always tell me, "Wow, that sounds like musical theatre." Or, when I try to write in the country genre, "Hmm.... sounds like musical theatre...", Or jazz: "Man, everything you write sounds like musical theatre!"LOL! So, I figure if that's the feedback I keep getting, I might as well go with it. True, there's not much call for that genre on Taxi or with music libraries, but fortunately I have other connections and avenues in which to market myself in the musical theatre world. After all, being a music director for musical theatre is my "day job," so to speak. That's where I earn the majority of my income.thesongcabinet:Quote:But you might not want to studi HIT songwriting, which is a whole different beast (allthough it's very useful).Interesting. So, there is a difference between "hit" songwriting and musical theatre writing? What would you say the biggest difference is? Off the top of my head, I'd assume the major difference would be that musical theatre song writing is designed to serve the plot, and musical theatre songs can't always stand on their own outside of the play. And, I've noticed the form doesn't always seem to be the same as songs on the radio (i.e., musical theatre form often tends to be ABAA or something along that form, rather than verse chorus verse chorus bridge chorus chorus.)Are there other differences I should be on the lookout for? Thanks for the tip on "Lyrics on Several Occasions." I'll check that book out.

Hey Kevin - Big question here if you ask 100 different songwriters you'll get 100 different answers. In general, practice, practice, practice. Try not to censor yourself before you begin and definitely don't immediately compare what you're doing to your role models cuz that's a losing battle every time. Thing is, if you find your unique voice then you'll be better at that than anyone in the world. Once you find that and don't doubt it you're untouchable. I've always thought that writing a lousy song is better than writing no song at all be cause you learn from everything you do and you get closer to where you want to be. Hope this helps in some small way...eo.

Interesting. So, there is a difference between "hit" songwriting and musical theatre writing? What would you say the biggest difference is? Off the top of my head, I'd assume the major difference would be that musical theatre song writing is designed to serve the plot, and musical theatre songs can't always stand on their own outside of the play. And, I've noticed the form doesn't always seem to be the same as songs on the radio (i.e., musical theatre form often tends to be ABAA or something along that form, rather than verse chorus verse chorus bridge chorus chorus.)Are there other differences I should be on the lookout for? --------------------I think all the things you mention is right on the mark.HIT songwriting is oriented towards being played on the radio, and therefore must adapt to some quantitative formulas. You need to get to the hook before 1min (35sec in pop), and the songs need to be well under 4min to give room for commercials (or you add solosections in the end, so dj's can speak over it). In musical theatre writing you need to adapt to the setting where the song have to work, and that can be a lot different, so general formulas don't neccesarily apply.Broadway writing is also known for the need for perfect rhymes. Not sure how that is today, I guess it depends on the play, but some of the rhymescheme theory from pop/rock might also not work in musical theater.I would think you are also more free to use exciting harmony for musical theater, as you don't need to appeal to a generally conservative pop/rock audience that don't care for too complex harmony.But it sounds like you're in good shape.