EQ and Mixing Balance Help

[jaymz]

A pop/rock song written about 10 years ago, trying to finish it up. I had a version where I had some complaints that the snare wasn't prominent enough and the overall highs needed some love. I tried to fix that, but now worry I've overdone it. Any feedback is appreciated.

https://soundcloud.com/thependingprojec ... lo-testing

[lesmac]

Snare still sounds light to me on my laptop with crappy headphones. I'd add a sample to try and get the modern drum sound.
A good trick to get a snare level in the ballpark is to turn the mix down till you can only just hear everything and you should be able to hear the snare nearly level with the vocal.
Having one small speaker is cool for this or run it through your headphones with them sitting on the desk in front of you.

[DanLuedke]

Good song!

You asked for mix advice and I think your mix is pretty good. I think if you A/B it with some commercial productions in a similar genre you will find that your snare is quieter relative to the rest of the mix than other genres but I don't think it's way out of line. You have a lot of big stuff in the chorus of this track to balance (vocals, guitars, crash cymbals) but I would maybe carve out some more space for the snare (and vocals?) and just plain turn up and/or beef up the snare.

What have you been using as a mix reference? I use this album for mix referencing in this genre: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwlqymY ... DE64D1E2F0 Hear how much space that snare has in the chorus but everything still feels big? Can't say I've achieved that level of results myself but hopefully it helps.

[PhilRey]

Nice song, and good sound, not so far from really good I think, but yes, the snare is a little bit blurry...
Maybe you could pan even more anything in the way of the snare's frequencies (guitars mainly ?) ?
Improve a little bit the overall EQ ? (a tiny bit more brillant ?).. These are just a few ideas.

The chorus on this one is showing the way eventually : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjVNlG5cZyQ

Good luck

[lesmac]

I agree with Dan and Phil about eq. Listened in the studio and it sounds congested in the low mids and you've pushed the highs to make them compete. I think its across the whole mix like a master bus boost over 6k?

The kick lacks definition and the bass isn't really coming through. Warren Huart has a good video on getting bass to sit right in a mix. He duplicates the bass track and compresses the crap out of one that has a high cut at 120Hz. He then low cuts the other at 120 and puts a bit of sweeter on- grit etc, boosts around 7-800 to get it to pop on smaller speakers, adds harmonics etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgq0_RPTFS8

As per Mr Huart take some 350Hz out of the drums, same with some of your guitars. If you haven't already do some opposite eq moves on your guitars, you need to make some space for the snare and it needs some body added if you can't uncover any.

So at the moment the kick lacks punch, the bass isn't anchored and solid, the mix is overly bright. The track feels like its not tight down low where it should be.

There's more than one way to skin a cat so best of luck with which ever way you go with it.

Its a great track BTW.

[jaymz]

Thanks guys, all your feedback is well understood, especially around the low mids, I have earlier mixes where the kick is too prominent and causing spikes on subs (which I remedied but it probably had the side effect of burying it now). I will check out the videos you all sent. It's a labor of love - onto version 8.12c

[andygabrys]

Great song.

My impressions on arrangement :

A) the filtered intro has a different groove than when the band enters. On a repeated listen I think its because the acoustic guitar is pushing the groove and its too loud IMO. I want to hear the electrics and the drums driving it. right now I get more AC Gtr than drums. Dropping the level of the Ac Gtr will help, but if the performance pushes the groove, and pushes the drums, I would also nudge the Ac Gtr back in time until it sits a little more in the pocket. I am a guitarist and have learned not to be too precious about my own playing. Sometimes I play too much on the front of the beat.

B) the vocal finally enters at 1:00 into the song. Depending on the intended use, you could consider radically shortening the intro so that the section between 0:34 to 1:00 is gone. I would even consider doing some creative editing to your arrangement so that the 4 bar filtered intro is repeated by the band doing just 4 bars with the faster harmonic rhythm like the intro. then your intro would be 0:20. Food for thought.

If this is for a TV or film use, you are going to be providing a vocal and an instrumental mix. So you don't need super long instrumental sections as they can always use one or the other or edit one into the other - whatever works for the picture. When listening the first time, I figured this would be a vocal song but I was really wondering when the vocals were going to enter.

Mix:

1) Vocal in verses has no high end. Work on that vocal sound. Chorus vocals are a little buried compared to the verse vocal as well and I noticed the drop playing from the verse into the chorus. Working on the sound of verse vocal to regain the high end can help you bring that down a touch in level and it will add continuity.

If its a vocal tone issue - like the range of the vocal in the verse and the singers unique voice adds a really round tone with little edge, you can add some parallel vocal distortion mixed way under, or try some eq tricks, or even thin out the verse arrangement a little so it builds more and doesn't stomp on the vocal.

Like the vocal in the doughnut hole idea - maybe the verse instruments can be panned wider. Like the electric feels like its totally down the center - and its hard to get the vocal out front when everything is down the center unless the vocal is wide.

Imagine 0:54, the wide chorus guitars fade down. The acoustic and the drums and bass carry the arrangement under the vocal. The step filter type effect at 0:59 under "reading my mind" make it mono instead of stereo, and pan it off to one side. If you want it cover the stereo spectrum to accentuate the "reading" idea then start it left and pan to the right.

prechorus at 1:14 - use one electric to start panned hard to one side and pan the piano or background melody to the other side. Then when chorus hits - big loud wide electrics to drive it.

Like Bobby Owsinski often says - Loud L and R doing the same thing equals big MONO. You need some differences to make it work.

2) Hi-hat is crispy bright almost distorted. I would go for less eq. Hi passing hats if normal, if they get out of control try a slight low pass as well. I think the snare is going to be fine once you can actually hear it. Right now the level of the drums seems to be governed by the hi-hats - like turning up the drums in general would be crazy hi-hats in front. So the kit needs a little different balance.
3) Acoustic guitars through most of the tune are also bright. How many are there in the chorus? Its its doubled I would drop one and pan the one thats left about 10 o'clock Left or right, whatever side the hi-hat is not on. If its just one to begin with, consider filtering a little more low end, drop a little high end so its not quite so bright and I would still consider panning opposite the hi-hat.
4) Lacking some definition in the electrics. 400 hz cut slightly. A little 1 kHz or 2 kHz might help to bring out some clarity.
5) Kick could be better heard if you added some nail in the paddle (1 or 3 or 5 or 10 k whatever works) without just making it louder. Consider cutting a little sub if its making some systems freak out on the bottom.
6) Bass doesn't have tons of definition. My way it to use some compression, pultec eq, additional eq just to tailor how low into the sub range the bass reaches, and parallel over drive. The crossover bass sound that Les detailed is a cool idea, and my parallel overdrive channel does similar things - increases harmonics, gives more bite, increases intelligibility without overly messing with the bass tone. I also side chain compress the bass on rock tunes keyed to the kick drum. So its like kick attack > bass sustain. Makes it easier to have the kick and bass working together to provide a solid bottom that doesn't move.

7) LAST THING - I would balance this production by soloing vocals and drums. Balance the chorus. Then balance the verse. Now turn on the bass and balance it against the kick drum soloed. Then turn the rest of the kit and the vocals. Does it work through the entire tune?

If so then turn on the electrics and everything else and slot all those elements into the framework you already have.

The mix is contained within the height of the kick / bass and hi-hat / cymbals / vocals.

Hope that helps.

[PhilRey]

Well.. I know who to ask for mixing tips now ! Awesome feedback

[lesmac]

by PhilRey » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:59 am
Well.. I know who to ask for mixing tips now ! Awesome feedback

+1 Andy is the man! Such detailed help in so many different areas related to what we are about here. Pure gold!

[jaymz]

Wow, thank you so much for that detailed feedback. You must have been able to tolerate the song to get through it all.

Great song.

My impressions on arrangement :

A) the filtered intro has a different groove than when the band enters. On a repeated listen I think its because the acoustic guitar is pushing the groove and its too loud IMO. I want to hear the electrics and the drums driving it. right now I get more AC Gtr than drums. Dropping the level of the Ac Gtr will help, but if the performance pushes the groove, and pushes the drums, I would also nudge the Ac Gtr back in time until it sits a little more in the pocket. I am a guitarist and have learned not to be too precious about my own playing. Sometimes I play too much on the front of the beat.

Understand, most of the texture is a strat through an orange amp, and I believe I ran the acoustic through a roland, I 'think', i actually recorded these tracks back in 2009, i've had a few beers since then - but I hear you about creating a better notch.

B) the vocal finally enters at 1:00 into the song. Depending on the intended use, you could consider radically shortening the intro so that the section between 0:34 to 1:00 is gone. I would even consider doing some creative editing to your arrangement so that the 4 bar filtered intro is repeated by the band doing just 4 bars with the faster harmonic rhythm like the intro. then your intro would be 0:20. Food for thought.

If this is for a TV or film use, you are going to be providing a vocal and an instrumental mix. So you don't need super long instrumental sections as they can always use one or the other or edit one into the other - whatever works for the picture. When listening the first time, I figured this would be a vocal song but I was really wondering when the vocals were going to enter.

Yes - this would be the 'album version'. I have another version where this intro is cut into for halvsies (and I'd actually like to kill the entire filtered into as well - it doesn't offer anything).

Mix:

1) Vocal in verses has no high end. Work on that vocal sound. Chorus vocals are a little buried compared to the verse vocal as well and I noticed the drop playing from the verse into the chorus. Working on the sound of verse vocal to regain the high end can help you bring that down a touch in level and it will add continuity.

If its a vocal tone issue - like the range of the vocal in the verse and the singers unique voice adds a really round tone with little edge, you can add some parallel vocal distortion mixed way under, or try some eq tricks, or even thin out the verse arrangement a little so it builds more and doesn't stomp on the vocal.

Thanks, i struggled with the vocal mightily as I was compensating for bad mic placement (again, too lazy to go back and do a proper take). Like most, I'm not a fan of my voice so this is where mixing your own music becomes a problem.

Like the vocal in the doughnut hole idea - maybe the verse instruments can be panned wider. Like the electric feels like its totally down the center - and its hard to get the vocal out front when everything is down the center unless the vocal is wide.

Imagine 0:54, the wide chorus guitars fade down. The acoustic and the drums and bass carry the arrangement under the vocal. The step filter type effect at 0:59 under "reading my mind" make it mono instead of stereo, and pan it off to one side. If you want it cover the stereo spectrum to accentuate the "reading" idea then start it left and pan to the right.

prechorus at 1:14 - use one electric to start panned hard to one side and pan the piano or background melody to the other side. Then when chorus hits - big loud wide electrics to drive it.

Like Bobby Owsinski often says - Loud L and R doing the same thing equals big MONO. You need some differences to make it work.

A lot of mono guitar trying to let the vocals and drums spread. I like your ideas though, i don't do enough side panning.

2) Hi-hat is crispy bright almost distorted. I would go for less eq. Hi passing hats if normal, if they get out of control try a slight low pass as well. I think the snare is going to be fine once you can actually hear it. Right now the level of the drums seems to be governed by the hi-hats - like turning up the drums in general would be crazy hi-hats in front. So the kit needs a little different balance.

I don't hear it this way at all, which is why I'm glad you brought it up - this probably comes from my own biased ears. I will take a look at it.

3) Acoustic guitars through most of the tune are also bright. How many are there in the chorus? Its its doubled I would drop one and pan the one thats left about 10 o'clock Left or right, whatever side the hi-hat is not on. If its just one to begin with, consider filtering a little more low end, drop a little high end so its not quite so bright and I would still consider panning opposite the hi-hat.

just one acoustic with stereo compression and eq.

4) Lacking some definition in the electrics. 400 hz cut slightly. A little 1 kHz or 2 kHz might help to bring out some clarity.

yup!

7) LAST THING - I would balance this production by soloing vocals and drums. Balance the chorus. Then balance the verse. Now turn on the bass and balance it against the kick drum soloed. Then turn the rest of the kit and the vocals. Does it work through the entire tune?

Yes, good idea, original mix was a track against white noise one at a time.

Hope that helps.

Very much... hope I can return the favor some time.