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I have a question regarding the work-for-hire agreements required by this new listing. Does anyone have experience with these and know what the agreements would even say? The songs I'd like to submit were recorded with my old band (we've recently split up). Although I wrote or cowrote all of the songs, it wasn't me as a solo artist hiring musicians to play on my record. We were a band and everyone in the band contributed their time and money to the project. So I'm not sure why a work-for-hire agreement would be needed, because it's not really a work-for-hire situation. I'm also not sure how the financial situation would work if a song actually got licensed. If it was a song I wrote by myself, I assume I'd get most of the money, but my old bandmates would understandably expect something as well. (BTW, I'm new here. Been a Taxi member since July 2007. I've had a decent amount of forwards, but no deals...yet.)Thanks,Joel

If the other band members aren't co-writers then you need to have an agreement. The publisher doesn't want someone who played on the recording trying to come after them to get some money after the song is licensed. They want absolutely no strings attached. In your situation it's trickier because you probably didn't have any type of agreement with the other members of the band as to what would happen if any of the recordings that they put money in to got licensed. Hopefully you'll put one together before you start your next band. Act as if you are going to get a deal and then that will dictate how to proceed with documentation.I suggest you consider listing them as co-writers for a smaller percentage and make sure they all sign something to that effect.If you have a number of these songs recorded with the band and are considering submitting them, you might want to look in some books that have these types of agreements in them and also consult with an entertainment attorney that is familiar with band agreements. You want to be free and clear when you submit in case you get offered a deal. You need to have the documentation in hand when they call you.Good luck,Mazz

Thanks for the advice, Mazz. Listing them as co-writers for a smaller percentage is a good idea. I think they'd go for that.Joel

Apr 15, 2008, 7:57am, joel wrote:I have a question regarding the work-for-hire agreements required by this new listing. Does anyone have experience with these and know what the agreements would even say? There are a few of these types of agreements already posted on the forum. Do a search for Work for Hire. There are thread, docs and discussions. Quote:The songs I'd like to submit were recorded with my old band (we've recently split up). Although I wrote or cowrote all of the songs, it wasn't me as a solo artist hiring musicians to play on my record. We were a band and everyone in the band contributed their time and money to the project. So I'm not sure why a work-for-hire agreement would be needed, because it's not really a work-for-hire situation. You are not allowed to use tunes that everyone participated in, without that work for hire agreement, one for each participant, and for each song. Although you are correct it wasn't an actual work for hire situation, you will be trying to get those tunes forwarded to companies who are very skittish about doing business with anyone that doesn't do business the way THEY want. If you already have a clear agreement with all the participants about how they will earn money as a result of the marketing work that you are doing, get that stuff on paper, and make sure they sign it, allowing you to exploit their creative work, exactly as you all intended.Quote:I'm also not sure how the financial situation would work if a song actually got licensed. If it was a song I wrote by myself, I assume I'd get most of the money, but my old bandmates would understandably expect something as well. This leads me to believe you've never discussed this stuff very much with your partners. Quote:(BTW, I'm new here. Been a Taxi member since July 2007. I've had a decent amount of forwards, but no deals...yet.)Thanks,JoelIt's great that you have a bunch of forwards, but this business accountability stuff will really get in the way, if one of your participants believes (rightfully or not,) that they are entitled to earn money from the tracks he/she played on. The other problem is that whatever entity interested in your tune(s), may likely be unwilling to ever do business with you, if they get a sense that there might remotely be a chance that you are not legally in a position to be sending out tunes. It's really not that big a deal to get this stuff done. There must be some kind of ethical agreement y'all can come up with. After you learn how this can work, and you have a vision of it working, get your band together for a meeting. You'll need to convince them that it's in their best fiduciary business, to co-operate with your plan. They might be able to make some money, is always a great way to start a discussion. Be prepared to negotiate with those same band members, and be prepared to stand your ground, and/or turf the project from your own music marketing plans, if they really don't wanna get on board. If your old band members left the band in a huff, and don't want to co-operate with your vision of how they could make money off these tunes they worked on, it was a good thing that the band split up sooner than later!!I hope this helps, I'm sure you'll get some more advice. I have also faced exactly the same problem. Can you show us some of the tunes? we could ask questions about individual tunes and participation. That might help us all understand what your situation actually is, and we could all learn from it too!steve

Thanks Steve. That's more great info. If you want to hear some tunes, you can listen at www.myspace.com/tammanyhall. Or you can stream the entire album at www.amateursaw.com. Everyone in the band contributed to the arrangements, and people generally wrote their own guitar parts and bass lines, etc. I wrote over half the songs on my own, but there are some where another member wrote an instrumental bridge or something, and there are a couple where another member wrote the chords and I wrote the melody and lyrics. Seems like the agreements would need to be on a per song basis.The recording costs were paid using money the band made playing gigs and money contributed by 3 of the 5 band members. Basically, I think everyone deserves a cut of the money if these songs ever make any money, but how much of a cut is something I'm not sure of. It could get complicated. We're all still on speaking terms, so that's good. I'll check out those sample agreements and see if that will help me. Sounds like I'm going to have to shell out the cash to speak with a lawyer though.Thanks,Joel

After reading the responses from Steve and Mazz and speaking with a lawyer friend, I have an idea of how I can handle this, and I'd like to run it by you guys. Basically, I would have a contract drawn up for each song on the album, dividing up the songwriting and ownership rights between each member of the band. Every person who played on the song would be listed as a songwriter and would be given a percentage. The contracts would also give me (as the primary songwriter) the right to act on the other band members' behalf and license the songs as I see fit. That way I could sign any licensing contracts without involving them. Would that work? If I do it that way, I wouldn't need to get work-for-hire agreements from them, right?Thanks,Joel

That was fast, and looks like a pretty good solution. You might also want to figure out how you can own, or at the very least be the decision maker with regardds to publishing. Because if you sign all your pals up as songwriters, then whatever entity wants to use your music, might prefer that the other writers to assign their publishing to you as well. If you get all the publishing assigned to you, then you will be in the driver's seat, as far as being allowed to pitch, without needing to get your co-writers to agree to what you think might be a good deal for the song(s). That's why the work for hire thing is usually better, IMHO, but ethically, I like what you're doing even more. You probably need to be positive that your co-writers will co-operate completely with your plan, once a potential deal is offered to the song(s). With just the co-writer agreement, your co-writers can still say NO, if you put a deal in front of them that you need them to sign. Getting the publishing assigned to you (or a company you set up) can mean you actually have power of attorney, which is what allows you to make binding decisions on behalf of the song and the writers. A publisher may not want, to contact each writer individually, so with the publishing assigned to you, they can deal with you, and you only. It's faster and more efficient for them, as well as you. I'm certainly NOT any kind of legal expert. My opinions are exactly what the word means. They are not facts, just helpful intentions. Nobody said it'd be easy. But you're doing fine.Apr 15, 2008, 1:29pm, joel wrote:After reading the responses from Steve and Mazz and speaking with a lawyer friend, I have an idea of how I can handle this, and I'd like to run it by you guys. Basically, I would have a contract drawn up for each song on the album, dividing up the songwriting and ownership rights between each member of the band. Every person who played on the song would be listed as a songwriter and would be given a percentage. The contracts would also give me (as the primary songwriter) the right to act on the other band members' behalf and license the songs as I see fit. That way I could sign any licensing contracts without involving them. Would that work? If I do it that way, I wouldn't need to get work-for-hire agreements from them, right?Thanks,Joel

Yeah, that's what the lawyer suggested too. I'll definitely do that as well. Thanks for your help, guys! I'll really appreciate it.Joel

Yeah, what Steve said. If everyone agrees to let you drive the boat as far as submitting, and you can set up a publishing company that represents everyone, you're home free, IMO. This is a very good solution and one I would suggest implementing proactively for every song you write or co-write from here on out. Of course, you may also want the lawyer to draw up a work for hire agreement for future use. While he's got the clock ticking and his computer on, you might as well have him do that too! If you have session players play on any of your songs, you'll need to have them sign it anyway so might as well get it done.Cheers,Mazz

Yeah, I'll have him draw me up a work-for-hire agreement too. I'll definitely be needing one soon. I've talked with my ex-bandmates, and it sounds like they'll be cool with all this. Now I just need to figure out what to do with my new band. We're currently in the studio working on an album, so now is probably the time to do this stuff. I wrote all the songs by myself before I even started playing with these guys, so the songs are definitely mine. But my new bandmates are making a huge contribution to the arrangements. It's been a real collaborative effort in that regard, and the songs are much better because of their input. So, part of me feels like splitting everything evenly with them. Seems like there would be less issues in the future. But I also don't want to just give potential money away that's rightfully mine. Have you guys had experience with this or know what a lot of other bands do? It's pretty difficult to quantify someone's musical contribution.Thanks,Joel