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I've got a melody for this, and was wondering if anyone had thoughts and suggestions before I lay it out.



(Vs)
Let's say, this woman cheated on her man
Let's say, he didn't take it all that well.
Let's say, he had walked in on the act
Let's say, he beat the other man to hell

(Ch)
Was he justified;
hypothetically speaking?
Can you blame the guy;
he was caught off guard.
Trouble found him
that he wasn't seeking.
Would you understand;
hypothetically speaking?

(Vs)
What if, that beat up lover was a cop
What if, that was never known at the time
What if, this involved your best friend
What if, it were a problem of mine

(Ch)
Would you bail me out;
hypothetically speaking?
Would you sympathize;
get me out of there?
If I called you,
interrupted your sleeping
would you come get me;
hypothetically speaking?

(Bridge)
I know it's late, man I hate
to wake you up my friend,
but hypothetically speaking,
I'm callin a favor in

(Ch)
Could I count on you;
hypothetically speaking?
Remember that time
I was your alibi?
Don't get me wrong;
I'm not score keeping
but I'm in a bind
hypothetically speaking

Get the hell to the jail
hypothetically speaking

© L. James Tanner

What's your goal for the song? e.g. Pitch for an artist to record, Film/TV, your own pleasure, sell on your own CD's/downloads?

That's critical here because different markets will accept different lyrical styles and subjects. In general, songs that don't stay in first and second person (e.g. me and you, you and I) don't work well commercially. And "beat another man to hell" is too violent for many uses.

Without hearing it sung, my first reaction to a word like "hypothetically" is it's a mouthful to sing. But again, I'd need to hear it.

Please tell us more about what your looking to do with this song.

Best
Casey

Casey H wrote:What's your goal for the song? e.g. Pitch for an artist to record, Film/TV, your own pleasure, sell on your own CD's/downloads?

That's critical here because different markets will accept different lyrical styles and subjects. In general, songs that don't stay in first and second person (e.g. me and you, you and I) don't work well commercially. And "beat another man to hell" is too violent for many uses.

Without hearing it sung, my first reaction to a word like "hypothetically" is it's a mouthful to sing. But again, I'd need to hear it.

Please tell us more about what your looking to do with this song.

Best
Casey

Hi Casey, right now it's for my own pleasure, with maybe a pitch later (maybe)....I have looked it over and don't see where it leaves 1st person. The whole lyric is a phone conversation from a man building his case to his friend with "hypothetical" questions.... It might be possible that some may think that line is too violent, but the average Joe can picture that happening when someone messes with someones "ole lady" (as my family from the south puts it) ..I guess I would characterize this as "Outlaw Country" because in the south, this is the way things are handled, at least from my neck of the woods. I have the melody done, but not recorded, and "hypothetically" (pronounced "Hypothetic'ly" by most people) flows off the tongue well. But as a read, I can see your trepidation. I would say it's a blend of the old country style, with a touch of new, music and melody wise. When I get it done, I'll make sure to post it for your analysis and critique, because I do value input, and especially the time taken to give it a listen, just as I value the time you spent to read and comment. I appreciate that.

"This woman cheated on her man" is 3rd person language. Not like "I cheated on you" which would be 1st/2nd person. There are also changes in "person" in the song.

The old adage is for most popular music, especially pop and country, if you have to explain it (as you did with the phone conversation thing), it's not working.

My response here is not an opinion as to whether this is good or bad as much as is it commercially viable as far as a publisher accepting it to pitch to artists. For your own pleasure or for your own music to sell on CD or download, there are no real rules. But pitching it different. That requires hit song material and the 'person' issues, violent references, not being something most listeners would want to hear (Ralph Murphy: What does the 18-24 year old female driving to work at 7:30 AM want to hear?) severely limit what you could do as far as pitching.

Not at all meant to be harsh so please don't take it that way! Speaking commercial music.

Best,
Casey

Casey H wrote:"This woman cheated on her man" is 3rd person language. Not like "I cheated on you" which would be 1st/2nd person. There are also changes in "person" in the song.

The old adage is for most popular music, especially pop and country, if you have to explain it (as you did with the phone conversation thing), it's not working.

My response here is not an opinion as to whether this is good or bad as much as is it commercially viable as far as a publisher accepting it to pitch to artists. For your own pleasure or for your own music to sell on CD or download, there are no real rules. But pitching it different. That requires hit song material and the 'person' issues, violent references, not being something most listeners would want to hear (Ralph Murphy: What does the 18-24 year old female driving to work at 7:30 AM want to hear?) severely limit what you could do as far as pitching.

Not at all meant to be harsh so please don't take it that way! Speaking commercial music.

Best,
Casey

Thanks for the response Casey

I guess where we differ in opinions at (I could be wrong, and would like to know if I am, so I hope someone else chimes in) is that I submit that this is 1st person with 3rd person analogies, since it's hypothetical questions being put out. Does that make sense?.. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not being defensive or trying to be flippant, if it is the case I have looked at this wrong, I sure want to know, but I had to give my thoughts. I had this reviewed at another reputable site where it got mixed reviews, but that wasn't noted or brought up, yet that doesn't mean you don't have a valid point that nobody touched on, so I would really like some extra feedback. You do have me questioning it, so I would like other feedback....This is the kind of critique and dialog I'm looking for, and I appreciate your honesty and straightforwardness...I gotta say, I do hope your wrong

Always get lots of opinions. Just to clarify about "person", I'm referring to the individual lyric lines, not as much as the story as a whole.

Apologies if this is too simplistic, it's just for clarification of terminology for discussion. I needed to review it as well so I made sure **I** was using the right terminology.
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/educat ... ird-person

Best
Casey

This reads to me as believable as Nine Inch Nails, but not country.

The world "hypothetically" isn't a death blow in itself, but it is couched here in
a tone that is definitely not country. (A country song isn't just a regular song, sung
with a twang. It has may rules as rigid as a James Bond script or Japanese tea ceremony.)

If country is your main thing, I think the song needs a re-write or three.
If your writing spreads across many styles, I would explore more edgy, alt styles.

I've often had the same struggle with maintaining a personal vision vs. heeding the feedback of others and here's
one thing I often remind myself...

My very favorite hit songs are bullet-proof. They require no defending, nor explanation.

In your songs, I urge you to go for bullet-proof.

Good work, so far!

-b

PS: Casey makes some very substantiated points. They are definitely worth consideration.

Hey LJ,

Since you asked for more feedback, I'm weighing in, hypothetic'ly speaking...

First, I think you should always write to please yourself; it's your song, so it oughta be something you WANT to write. Second, I agree with the other's in that just as you can't judge a book by it's cover, it's tough to judge a song on the lyric alone. I'd prefer to hear it, but we can talk about the lyric without the melody.

On the plus side, I think it's an interesting idea for a song. That said, I'm not sure that it's a very country lyric, and not even outlaw country (folk, maybe). IMHO, country (and especially outlaw country) is way more direct and gritty than that - 'hypothetically speaking' is just not what I'd expect to hear your average good ol' boy say.

I agree with Casey about the problem of point of view (POV), to a point. You do jump around a bit too much and sometimes in the same section: "Was he justified (3rd person)...Can you blame the guy (2nd person)..." Although we can figure it out reading, it would be hard to follow listening to it.

It isn't that you can't switch between different points of view in the same song (consider Eleanor Rigby or She's Leaving Home, for example). It's just that you have to have a good reason for doing so and be careful about it. For an excellent article on the use of 1st, 2nd and 3rd person, go to: http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/n ... lyrics.htm. You have to be careful with pronouns. The late John Braheney's Taxi article spells out some of the pitfalls: http://www.taxi.com/music-business-faq/ ... oblems.php and Ralph Murphy offers his laws on pronouns here: http://www.ascap.com/music-career/artic ... rphy6.aspx.

I also don't agree that 3rd person songs can't be commercially successful. Consider the Kathy Mattea hit (no 10 on the country charts and the 1990 Grammy winning country song of the year) "Where’ve You Been” by John Vezmer and Don Henry (two great songwriters). The song also switches POV - going from third person in the verses to direct address in the chorus, as the wife sings to her husband at three different times in their life together. It's a very powerful song.

The most important issue is which POV is the most effective for the song. Steve Seskin recommends rewriting in each POV to see which works best, and how each comes across to the listener. Whichever supports that hook AND has the biggest emotional impact is likely going to be the most effective. (I confess I don't do this often enough; usually when I'm struggling with the original POV I've chosen.) In this case, I don't think 3rd person is the most effective vehicle, especially if you're writing a country song.

I agree with Burpo that the overall tone of the song isn't country. Phrases like "I'm not score keeping" sacrifice conversationality to make the rhyme, a real no-no in country where 'conversational' is king. Also, I'd expect any country lyric to have far more visual images. You could have written something like (in 1st person):

I didn't know he was a cop when I was throwing punches at his head
He wasn't in his uniform when I found him in my girlfriends bed
Now she's nursing his bruises while I'm sitting in the county jail
I'll be stuck in here til Tuesday if I can't find someone to post my bail

OR (2nd person):

YOU coulda said he was a cop before I started throwing punches at his head
He wasn't in his uniform when I found him bouncing around YOUR bed
Now YOU'RE nursing his bruises while I'm sitting in the county jail
I'll be stuck in here til Tuesday if YOU don't come down and post my bail

Of course, the 'Hypothetically Speaking' hook no longer works - but that's not such a big deal - if you can find another hook. For a great 'hypothetically speaking' country song (that doesn't mention the phrase once, BTW), check out the Lee Bryce tune, "A Woman Like You." It's a great example of country lyric writing at it's finest: visual, conversational, clever and fun.

I'll be curious to hear how it turns out, and what direction you take it. Good luck, whatever you decide!

LooknGlass wrote:I've got a melody for this, and was wondering if anyone had thoughts and suggestions before I lay it out.



(Vs)
Let's say, this woman cheated on her man
Let's say, he didn't take it all that well.
Let's say, he had walked in on the act
Let's say, he beat the other man to hell

(Ch)
Was he justified;
hypothetically speaking?
Can you blame the guy;
he was caught off guard.
Trouble found him
that he wasn't seeking.
Would you understand;
hypothetically speaking?

(Vs)
What if, that beat up lover was a cop
What if, that was never known at the time
What if, this involved your best friend
What if, it were a problem of mine

(Ch)
Would you bail me out;
hypothetically speaking?
Would you sympathize;
get me out of there?
If I called you,
interrupted your sleeping
would you come get me;
hypothetically speaking?

(Bridge)
I know it's late, man I hate
to wake you up my friend,
but hypothetically speaking,
I'm callin a favor in

(Ch)
Could I count on you;
hypothetically speaking?
Remember that time
I was your alibi?
Don't get me wrong;
I'm not score keeping
but I'm in a bind
hypothetically speaking

Get the hell to the jail
hypothetically speaking

© L. James Tanner

With the right melody, this is actually a great concept for AC. I actually read it and didn't cringe, but instead thought "Ha I like this." It's definitely edgy, and that's ok for AC. Country is typically less edgy because it's listeners are conservative white people.

Also it could use a prechorus. I wanna hear a demo of this, though.

the very reason why some think this isn't typically country lyrics may be the very reason you should keep it this way. sometimes pushing it a bit is what you need, but it can work both ways of course, especially if you're going for more traditional country.

What 18-24 year old female driving to work at 7:30 AM wants to hear should be the least of your worries, i think old mr. murphy is missing the mark here, like when he talks about "the human animal" and songwriters being "monumentally disfunctional" all the time