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Getting ready to get a new Mac, and....

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:57 am
by ComposerLDG
...I have a couple of nagging questions that maybe you could lend some insight. I'm configuring a new 27 inch iMac and have already decided on the 3.1 CPU and 32 GB RAM. I know I'll appreciate the extra screen real estate and the memory for layering virtual instruments and samples. My DAW is Logic Pro X, most recent update, and I run NI libraries (Kontact, Session Strings, etc.).

My question is on the type of drive. My brain tells me that an SSD is much faster than a HDD, but my wallet tells me that an internal 1 TB SDD is an extra $1000.00. Ouch. WWTD (what would Taxi do)?

An alternative would be to get Apple's 1 TB HDD that comes with the system and pick up an external SSD for a better price, but I do like to keep things simple and contained (unless there's a compelling reason to store the libraries on a separate drive. I do keep backups).

So anyway, thoughts? I'm trying to determine if an SSD will give me enough measurable performance boost since I'll have a very fast CPU and 32 GB of memory. Especially since it's a pretty significant chunk of $.

Happy Monday!

Loren

Re: Getting ready to get a new Mac, and....

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:35 am
by Paulie
If you can afford SSD for everything go for it. Or, stick with SSD for the Mac itself and store your sample libraries and others stiff on an external high speed hard drive. This little guy was recommended by some Taxi folks and it has been great for me.

Re: Getting ready to get a new Mac, and....

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:46 am
by ComposerLDG
Paulie wrote:If you can afford SSD for everything go for it. Or, stick with SSD for the Mac itself and store your sample libraries and others stiff on an external high speed hard drive. This little guy was recommended by some Taxi folks and it has been great for me.
Thanks, Paulie. Wow, that is a sweet price for a 1 TB drive. Do you find better performance in storing your logic samples on a separate drive? Like I said, I tend to take a simpler-is-better approach.

Anyway, I'm thinking if I plunk down the money now, I'll have a system that'll last me for a good long time, so I'll probably go for the 1 TB internal SSD.

Thanks again, and congrats on that Filipino forward!

-Loren

Re: Getting ready to get a new Mac, and....

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:03 am
by Len911
How about the 1 TB Fusion drive for +$200? or 3 TB Fusion drive for +$350?

The fusion drive has 128GB of flash that loads the OS and your frequently used programs automatically.

Mac OS ~ 7GB
Logic X ~ 6GB
Native instruments Komplete ~130GB, though you will never use all of the instruments and effects at the same time!

Most instruments use an efficient disk streaming technology, so it's doubtful you would notice a difference being flash or not, except for the actual program maybe loading faster.

32gb of ram is a lot also.

Re: Getting ready to get a new Mac, and....

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:14 am
by Len911
so I'll probably go for the 1 TB internal SSD.
Nooooooo!! :lol: :lol:

I hope you will reconsider the fusion, I personally think you'd be spending an extra $800 that could be better spent on other things. :|

Re: Getting ready to get a new Mac, and....

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:17 am
by ComposerLDG
Len911 wrote:How about the 1 TB Fusion drive for +$200? or 3 TB Fusion drive for +$350?

The fusion drive has 128GB of flash that loads the OS and your frequently used programs automatically.

Mac OS ~ 7GB
Logic X ~ 6GB
Native instruments Komplete ~130GB, though you will never use all of the instruments and effects at the same time!

Most instruments use an efficient disk streaming technology, so it's doubtful you would notice a difference being flash or not, except for the actual program maybe loading faster.

32gb of ram is a lot also.
You know, that Fusion drive does look interesting. Could give me the best of both. I'm wondering how Logic handles the Native Instruments libraries. Does it load the samples into RAM or stream them from the drive?

Re: Getting ready to get a new Mac, and....

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:06 pm
by andygabrys
I'm wondering how Logic handles the Native Instruments libraries. Does it load the samples into RAM or stream them from the drive?

In the settings within Kontakt (that can be accessed through the standalone version if you don't find them anywhere else) - there is an option of the amount of "pre-load" of each instrument that gets loaded into RAM, and then the rest is streamed DFD (direct from disk I believe). In other words Logic deals with the Kontakt stuff the same way it does with PLAY and every other sampler out there right now.

In days past, with mechanical hard drives for samples, it probably was an asset if you had good CPU power and were using a lot of samples to increase the pre-load size so that more of the sample / sample set was loaded into RAM.

These days with SSD's for samples I doubt that its a bottleneck any farther and I wouldn't bother messing with it any more.

Re: Getting ready to get a new Mac, and....

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:48 pm
by andygabrys
Here's some opinion(s) that you might consider - and this is written from the standpoint of someone who needs to have like 99.9% uptime cause this is my livelihood - I can't have a system go down for a week:

All of the current Apple models depend on external attachments to get anything done.

If you want to efficiently stream samples, you need a reasonable size HD or SSD. For a mechanical hard drive, reliability is an issue so backups even of sample drives are critical otherwise you can spend days reinstalling stuff. Performance wise, mech HD's are ok as long as you don't fill up more than half of the drive space, and as long as you don't dedicate them to more than one task. Read / write performance once the mech HD is more than 50% full drops off approximately exponentially. For example, using a internally mounted mech HD as your system drive, plus streaming samples off of it, plus using it as the record / save drive for your Logic projects, plus streaming video off it (if you are scoring to picture) is totally asking for trouble. You will never be so frustrated as to be in this situation.

SSD's provide much greater performance, and the price per GB of space is dropping rapidly as well. Still with SSD's you need to fill it up only 80% of the way, and at that point performance drops off as well. And even though there is no physical drive head on an SSD (which is both the read / write bottleneck with mech HD's and the moving parts which can fail) you can dedicate it to a certain number of simultaneous tasks before it won't handle the load. So using an SSD for the system drive and to save your Logic projects is probably safe. Even streaming some samples, fairly safe. Streaming an entire orchestral mockup is probably asking for frustration.

So most people are going to use external drives to:

1) stream samples (external SSD)
2) to stream video for scoring to picture (SSD nice, but mech HD will work)
3) to handle backup tasks - as long as you are copying legacy sessions on to your primary audio / Logic record / save drive instead of streaming from the back up drive, mech HD's are very cheap per GB and a mirror RAID setup is a good idea as mechanical HD's fail all the time. I have had 5 go down in the last 5 years.

assuming that you put your system recourses and your logic audio record / save on the internal drive.

All the new iMacs have lots of USB3 ports which are fast connections as well as thunderbolt so you have lots of connectivity and options.

Price?

Any aftermarket solution is going to cost less than Apple - period. http://www.macsales.com OWC has various options like Paul mentioned for external drives, and they also have had various turnkey upgrade programs to replace internal drives, add memory etc. That used to be the price performer for upgrades.

After fully researching what OWC can do, I would recommend getting the cheapest smallest internal storage with the iMac, and then getting upgrades to SSD's etc from OWC. You will probably spend less.

I wouldn't bother with the Fusion drive - cause its an SSD / flash drive mated to a mech HD, and again, the mech HD can fail quickly. If you don't have backups, you can be left high and dry. Even with backups, if the internal drive goes down, its still going to cost you time.

HTH - I was in your position last fall.

Had an aging Mac Pro 1,1, the CPU wasn't powerful enough to do much anymore with the modern software suites. I considered a lot of different angles - Hack Pro, a new Mac Pro, used Mac Pros, iMacs, Macbook Pro, Mac Mini's both to replace my mac and also as farm computers to stream samples.

What I found:

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/m ... acpro.html - I linked to the Mac Pro section but there is a section for every Mac Model. This site has single thread and multi-thread / multi-core performance scores for every mac ever created, and you can get a good idea how your machine stacks up against other similar models. Most DAW's now run with some kind of multi-thread / hyper thread support. Pro Tools does since V11, and Logic has since v9 and Logic X now supports 24 virtual cores if you have a true 12 core machine. Most operations in Logic, and bouncing in real time are going to use multiple cores / threads. Single thread applications are bouncing offline, and doing tasks like web browsing etc.

You will find a wide spread of performance between all the CPU's with 8 virtual cores (like the iMacs, the Macbook Pro's, the Mac Mini's etc) and the Mac Pros that range up to 24 virtual cores. Its hard to know which is right for you without being able to see hands on what some people are accomplishing with a certain build, but the multi-core performance scores give an idea.

Having a lot of RAM helps, but its really just for headroom. Its unlikely you will be running an orchestral template with 30 GB of samples pre-loaded, and even the most robust CPUs are going to freak out under the load if every track in your template is triggering MIDI > samples. I have 32 GB of RAM, and most of the time the load doesn't exceed about half of that, no matter what I am doing. That amount of headroom is fine.

I also realized that like I said above - modern Mac's aren't really built to accomplish a lot of streaming tasks unless you get the flash / SSD drives that Apple includes in the factory builds. But that comes at a major premium (especially for the Mac Pro 6,1 - yikes). Even that is a major question mark - how many simultaneous tasks can you accomplish? How big of a mock up? How many audio tracks?

So I ended up buying a used Mac Pro 5,1 12 core with 32 GB of ram, and I got a great price. Way less than you are going to spend on your iMac. You can search on this forum for other threads where I have blabbed on and on (like this thread LOL) about why I ended up with this machine, and what it has made possible with streaming samples (like I have two PCI mounted SSD's of 512 GB each) and backups (large internal mech HD's for redundant BU's).

Just an opinion - but spending a lot of $$ on the newest and greatest iMac may or may not be a great investment. Arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can.

There are only a few things I believe are "for sure":

1) computers are an expense that you need to undergo to do this work
2) you can write off the expense
3) saving a few bucks now may or may lead to frustration in the future, but you can insulate yourself by getting really knowledgeable about your buying choices
4) most people skimp on backups. I found out the hard way that this costs time (and ultimately money earned).
5) limping along your present system is money in the bank cause you already own it. If that means saving for another year and get something more powerful that has a longer shelf life, that might be a good decision. My first mac pro I bought in Jan 2007 and used it until Sept 2014. My present one I can see using for another 5-7 years.

Good luck!!!

Re: Getting ready to get a new Mac, and....

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:31 pm
by Len911
The smallest drive is 1TB I believe, that's included, but for +$200 more you can get the fusion with built-in 128gb ssd. SSD's can fail just like HDD's, I don't have statistics on which is most reliable.

That's fine, and if you need more later, you can always purchase outside Apple at better prices. 1TB, 32GB ram, 128gb ssd, is really a lot!! This ain't no entry level configuration for audio.
I run NI libraries (Kontact, Session Strings, etc.).
Shouldn't be any strain here. The money you save could be applied to more software and sample libraries, etc. The software dictates how much computer you need.

If Logic is like Cubase, there is track freeze, that renders an audio file with the current settings and releases the effect and instrument vi's with the ability to unfreeze and change the settings. Using composing software can also help, if you do experience a performance slowdown due to some unusually large and process intensive project.

If you mainly do orchestral mockups and want to have everything open at once and not use track freeze, etc., then you may need to move up to a mac pro with extra cores, I didn't see any indication for that though.

Re: Getting ready to get a new Mac, and....

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:04 pm
by ComposerLDG
OK guys, thank you for ALL of the information, and believe me, there is a wealth of it here! I really have some decisions to make.

One thing that alarmed me a bit is finding out that there were actually problems about a year so ago with Logic Pro and the Fusion drives. Seems like something in the software that joined the SSD and HDD portions of the drive into a single unit was causing clicks and pops in the audio. Just the thing you don't want, and something you avoid by buying a high end system! I believe those issues have been fixed with later updates.

If I'm reading right, it seems the best (if there ever is a "best") configuration is a very fast system drive that Logic resides and records on, coupled with either a USB 3 or Thunderbolt SSD to actually hold the libraries. Generally, try to not have everything on the system drive.

Am I on the right track?

Best,

Loren