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Thinking about replacing my cheap Pevey mixer with the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/FastTrkUltra/


Does anyone have any experience with this, and/or could recommend something better in the same price range?

and how does that compare against, say a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 IO FireWire Interface ?

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SaffirePro40/

Too many choices, I just have to make sure I make the right one.

I should elaborate a bit I think.

Here is my present setup:

-Decent computer, plenty of RAM, 2-core processor.
-Soundcard: M-Audio Audiophile 192
-Peavey8 Mixer
-Guitar Pod "kidney bean"
-Rode NT mic (2000 series I think?)
-EZ Drummer and a number of other VSTs
-MIDI Controller (old 150 dollar yamaha keyboard)
-decent set of JBLs for monitors

Basically, I am wondering which "weak link" to start with. The guy at Guitar Center said I should buy the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/FastTrkUltra/ and skip the soundcard I am using all together. What are your thoughts on this? Would the Ultra even be an improvement? What about latency?

The M-Audiophile 192 isn't a BAD card per say, but moving to the ultra isn't going to be that big of an upgrade either. IT WILL BE an upgrade though. You will be able to toss the mixer and plug directly into the ultra. If you are going to spend that much money I would look into other options. I wouldn't buy it from guitar center either unless you trust that branch a lot. You could probably find it cheaper elsewhere. Such as Ebay. The Focusrite Sapphire Pro wouldn't be a bad choice at all!! Being firewire and it is Focusrite it is MUCH better then the fast track ultra. imho...

I read up on that Peavey 8 mixer as much as I could, but I couldn't even find info on Peavey.com. I feel that your current audio chain is a bit sub par and I do agree that you should upgrade. I would look for a professional audio card to replace the 192 and I don't consider the fast track ultra to be in a pro category. More consumer end then pro although I wouldn't call it junk. The peavey mixer isn't bad either but I would think of that as still more consumer then pro. Although the mic preamps do boast a very low THD no where could I find a noise floor spec, dynamic rage, etc... for how in-expensive it is. It can't be something too ideal for trying to succeed with Taxi.

There are a number of options and that also depends on if you ever do more then one thing at a time recording. IF you only ever record one thing at a time, then you can put the money more into quality of components rather then more inputs. I don't see what sort of computer you have so I am going to assume it is a PC and NOT a mac. Which is fine. I would definitely go for a interface with mic pre amps so you can bypass using the peavey as well. At your stage in the game mixing totally in the box wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

I don't know what your budget is, but if it is around $300, you probably should think about saving some $$ until you can afford $500+. There are a number of entry level pro interfaces that start to open up at the $500 price range. Also, these interfaces usually have an on board chip, known as a DSP. This will operate the sound card with it's own processor saving computer power. I would also stay away from USB interfaces as they have the worst "pipeline" for streaming audio. Firewire is better and PCI (like your 192) is MUCH BETTER for processing audio. PCIe would be better still IF your motherboard has a PCIe slot on it... NOT to be confuse with Video PCIe 16. They are two different things. Since you have a dual core processor it is a safe bet you have at least 1 PCIe slot on your board. There are a number of professional unit that use Firewire and that is fine, even USB is fine when talking pro level but you will find you can do more tracks, plugins, softsynths etc... with PCI over firewire or USB. Best to worst is PCIe > PCI > Firewire > USB.

If you tell me your budget and your intended use, ie; solo or multiple recording at once. I, as well as anyone else that responds to your thread, could be much more specific in the direction I/we show you. The more money you spend here the better. The interface will be the thing that converts your audio to digital and back again and I can't stress enough the importance of having a solid system here.

The Rhode NT mic is a good mic. SO you are solid there. You will not need to upgrade that in the near future so you can safely put all your extra $$ into a interface. IF you use pro tools Mpowered with that 192 card and you want to stay with protools then the Digi Mbox2 (even though it is USB) wouldn't be a bad choice. Most places charge $450 for it but you can find it cheaper on Ebay. Another option would be the Mbox 2 Mini. There is the Digi 003 which is over $1000 but it is a SOLID pro unit if you can afford jumping that high.

More expensive then the Mbox2 would be RME. A solid company that make pro audio interfaces. The entry level into that would be a card basically the same to your 192 but the similarities end there. The RME 9632 (not to be confused with the 9652) is around $500-$600. You would need to pick extras with the 9632, such as the XLR cable and a mic pre so you would be on a pro level.

MOTU (Mark of the Unicorn) is another good company. They have MANY options.

E-MU makes a unit called the 1616m (m stands for mastering grade converters and the M version is about $100 more then the non m version) which has 6 audio inputs with 2 of those channels having high quality mic pres. The other 4 channels you could use your Peavey 8 mixer to run IF you were going to record multiple things at once. It also comes in a PCIe version

Mackie, Echo, and Alesis (there are many more) also make some units that might interest you. I have heard some decent recordings on the Steinberg interface. I can't think of the name offhand.

HTH and don't confuse too much,

Rob

Like I said before.. that Focusrite Sapphire Pro looks like a nice unit and would be swappable with a laptop (so long as it has firewire) and is made by a decent company. I have no reason to dissuade you from that unit unless you could afford to go even higher on your budget OR you decide firewire isn't what you want.

The Focusrite Sapphire Pro 24 would be a cheaper version more for solo recording. If more inputs would just gather dust for you. I MUST STRESS that many units look good on the surface but drivers could be sub par as well as clock jitter. Quality of components has pretty big spread as well between interfaces. These are HUGE differences in units and I would wait for more people to chime in before deciding.

I have the same sound card you have, I only use the s/pdif though. I don't think you would necessarily be upgrading the Peavey mixer by going with the m-audio.
Not knowing quite what your needs are, if you need several inputs at once or can do a mono track at a time, the biggest improvement for the least money in my opinion would be something like the grace m101 preamp, $565 @ sweetwater, and a $200 Cascade vin-jet ribbon microphone.
The Peavey of late is nothing to poo poo, they are nothing like they were 30-40 years ago, and they offer an exceptional value for the money, and be careful of the lower level focusrite, they are not the same as the high end Neve ones. Just be careful you aren't moving sideways or even down in quality.
Today I just received my Cascade mic, it takes a lot of preamp, and i had reservations about buying it and wasn't expecting a whole lot especially from a cheap chinese mic, it was a lot more than I was expecting actually. You don't have the high end of a cap mic, but
you don't have any harsh high end either of some of the cheaper condensers, great value.
I don't think upgrading your converters will do much unless you move to Lavry,prism,mytek, etc. But you need a better signal chain before you want to get to that level if you ever do. If you search youtube and Ethan Winer, Audio myths, there is an interesting video about the "not much difference in converter" demonstration.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/m101/
http://www.cascademicrophones.com/cascade_VIN-JET.html
I just noticed the grace has a ribbon mic mode, so as a bonus it will be sufficient to power the cascade if you get that as well. Most of the other stuff can be had inside the box, more than likely you can get by with not having an outboard compressor, especially if you use a ribbon mic,lol. Anyway that's my opinion, unless there is something left out, like you need to record a live orchestra or something,lol, hope it helps.

Keep in mind, applying phantom power to most ribbon mics will FRY THE RIBBON, so the phrase, "power the Cascade' shouldn't be taken literally. I think Len meant the Grace has plenty of clean gain; (I think it's 75dB in ribbon mode) ribbons (and most other dynamic mics) need more gain than condensers, about 70dB or so should do. Another nice feature to have for dynamics and ribbons is variable input impedance; with some mics, you can use it as a sort of 'focus' control.

The Audiophile 192 is an oldie but a goodie; I wouldn't consider the Fastrack Ultra an upgrade, unless the sockets on your card are worn out, or you need more I/O. Not sure why the GC guy would tell you that, unless he's got a bunch he needs to unload, but it IS the cheapest way to get 8 I/Os. (though the Fastrack Ultra is probably a good mate for a laptop rig) 8 ins and outs is pushing it for a USB 2.0 interface, imo; FireWire would be a safer bet, depending on how your ports are configured and whether you have a bunch of USB or FW drives hooked up already. Agree that Focusrite's high end hardware is excellent; (Green and Red Range) otherwise, you get what you pay for. You want better preamps at that price point, I'd look at PreSonus or Mackie Onyx, unless you want a 'character' preamp. The Octane preamps aren't any worse and are probably better than your Peaveys. Converters at that price point, as mentioned above, are really pretty equal.

First off, thank you all for sharing your wisdom.

That said, thank you for clarifying that the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra would just be a lateral move/slight upgrade for me and that my money would be better spent elsewhere.

I did some research on all of your suggestions and the one that stands out to me is the E-MU 1616m. My budget here is right around 500 dollars although I could go a little higher if there was a huge jump in quality to justify it.

I don't do a lot of multiple recording at once. Most of what I do is one track at a time. But I do like the convenience of a "breakout box" from the soundcard because (noise) I keep my computer behind a wall in another room. (Wires from the sound card and monitor are fed through 2 small holes in the wall, don't laugh haha it works)

So I guess my next question is, is the E-MU 1616m a pretty big upgrade from what I have now with the audiophile 192 and peavey mixer, or would it be smarter to invest the 500 in a preamp?

Thank you again everyone for the "sound advice", pun intended.

I think you'd hear a difference if you record at 192kHz; otherwise, I'd put my money in a nice preamp. Two channels if you record instruments in stereo or one super nice one if you primarily record vocals.

I second what Mojobone said. the emu is on par with the m-audio, and the peavey probably has better preamps than the emu. imo you would be throwing your money away purchasing the emu. The only thing you gain with the emu is a breakout box, more ins and outs, and a ho hum software suit. For a $100 less you could buy the Peavey pv10 usb with dsp effects, and have more ins and outs like the emu, better preamps, effects, a "breakout" box, but it doesn't really put you where you need to be than if you just bought a first class preamp.
fwiw I have always been attracted to the knobs, faders, and doodads on mixers, I think mixers are beautiful, but I still don't have one, because I only needed one or two channels to go in the box. I've never satisfied my mixer or console lust but I do have a channel of API, mic,compressor, and a couple microphones, Neumann, Telefunken, and now the Cascade vin-jet. If after I buy all the microphones, preamps and compressors in the world I would like, and if I ever become wealthy,ha, I will buy that beautiful console. This is just to say
that I wouldn't be distracted from your one goal of getting the best one or two analogue channels into the computer, and that should be your primary goal or focus.

That 1616m is a BIG JUMP over the fast track ultra... I owned the first fast track (for about a month) and I currently (I should say still) own the E-MU 1820m, the old version that they phased out, the 1616m is the latest. IF you got the 1616m PCI or PCIe none of the fasttracks can touch them in low latency verse audio track count, plugins, softsynths etc... you would be HARD PRESSED to find ANY USB or Firewire that could come close to what these units can do. I have used the DSP RFX Comp and EQ many times in recordings. They are of solid quality, but I only used them during recording. Re-wiring them takes a bit of CPU so not worth it to use them during mixing imho. Also, the mic pres on my 1820m are VERY nice sounding and the 1616m mic pres are supposed to be better... on the spec sheet, they ARE better.

BUT E-MU, like MANY other companies has a slow support structure... Email support only. So if you need support with that 1616m you will need to be patient. There is an "Unofficial Forum" that people would be happy to help you there if ya need. It's a nice little nook on the net for E-MU users. Plenty of info there... I am a master with my 1820m all because of that site. Just no phone support, there used to be but they took it away... /sigh ...IF I had more money to buy something different... yes, I would have, but the 1820m is what I could afford, so that is what I bought.

ALSO... you could go with the E-MU 1212m and use the extra money to buy a preamp like Mojo was saying and Len911 agreed with. That is a very nice interface and less expensive then the 1616m and it has the same converters. And the 1212m has balanced inputs like your 192 does.

If you stay with the M-audio 192, you should be fine. With a new preamp... I am confident you could make some really good recordings. The more I think about it... Your 192 is a PCI interface and no way would the Fast Track be faster then that once you start adding up plugins, softsynth, more tracks etc... MAYBE if your 192 don't have a DSP and the Fast Track does... Which I HIGHLY doubt. Otherwise I have no clue either why he would recommend going from PCI down to USB... YUK!!!!

Just a little more info on USB vs. Firewire... USB is more like a buss taking you somewhere, slow to start but it can go fast. Firewire is more like a sports car, handles the turns REALLY well although on data sheets USB 2.0 (480mbps) is SLIGHTLY faster on the top end then Firewire (400mbps). Personally I do not like Either of them at lower price ranges. I prefer PCI or better. But a pro unit with Firewire can be extremely awesome so it really depends...Like I said, drivers etc...

I totally/respectfully disagree with Len911 on that Peavey having better preamps... NOT a chance. Why Len911 would claim that peavey makes better preamps then the one E-MU are using is beyond me. Let alone I am confident that peavey mixer isn't getting above CD quality following the entire chain... IF it is over.. it's probably barely over. I can't find ANY data sheets on that mixer and that usually is a bad sign. The 1616m is WELL OVER CD quality through the entire chain. Your 192 is over CD quality as well so you should be able to get decent recordings with it. IF you do decide on the 1616m check your motherboard and see if you have a PCIe slot. If you do, get that version .. or the 1212m also comes in PCIe. BUT there is really no reason, that I can see, to dump your 192 unless you are going to "jump up" like Mojo said.

Another alternative I had considered was a Mackie Firewire unit, I read some poor things about it so I passed it up. They make a new version of it now and so it looks like they worked the bugs out of the old version for this new one. Link here: http://www.mackie.com/products/onyxinterfaces/ I am showing a price of $499 at zzounds on that, but they are not in stock yet.

Whatever you decide on... I am sure it will be a decent choice. The E-MU 1616m and 1212m have been around for a while, they both are on the newest versions which mean, they have been "upgraded" to fix flaws in the older versions. This Blackbird is a new version of an old unit Mackie made so it is a "fixed" unit as well. All tried and tested and revamped... Just beware of the new fangled units that haven't been around for a while. It doesn't take too much research to find out if a unit was built on the back of another unit or not.

Good Luck,

Rob

EDIT: BTW, the specs on the 1616m mic pres is; (60db of gain) and if they sounds as nice as mine on my 1820m then they are awesome!!
Microphone Preamplifier:

- Input Impedance: 1.5Kohms
- Max Level: +6dBV (+8.2dBu)
- EIN (20Hz-20kHz, 150ohm, unweighted): -129.5dBu
- Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-weighted, min gain): 119dB
- THD+N (1kHz at -1dBFS, min gain): -110dB (.0003%)
- Phantom Power: 48V
- Soft Limiter: 5dB max compression (software selectable)