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I was wondering if anyone here uses the D-Box or any other analog summing device in their workflow. I'm wondering if this is what I'm "missing" but it's tough for me to shell out $1400 before I hear from someone who has actually used it and can hear what it does for them.

Is this a recommended purchase? Or would my money be better spent on some Waves pluggins, new microphone or new mic pre?

tia

/jmark

Analog summing device is basically a mixer. Really it depends on what you are going to use it for and what it might be replacing. If you are only going to record 1 track at a time, you aren't going to be summing 8 channels into 2 to send as 1 track to your daw anyway probably, unless you want to record a live band or something.

I have an Oram octasonic (8 channels mic pre) that connect to Oram octamix. It is analog. I use an RME ADI-2 as my ad/da converter.

I have a few options when I am recording a vocal:

Mic~api mic pre~api compressor~rme adi-2~computer.

Mic~api mic pre~api compressor~octasonic~octamix~rme adi-2~computer

Mic~octasonic~octamix~rme adi-2~computer

I actually use the middle one.

I have a headphone amp on rme adi-2 and oram octamix. I've used both. I like oram because it is a little more flexible for headphone mix.
I use the octamix out to my amp to my monitors, but I can also do that with RME adi-2

I can also can run a mix out, I believe they call that reamping, through a couple of api compressors and back if I wanted, I have, but since I have not soldered a cable between the 2 compressors they aren't terribly accurate, and I use other plugins.

Unless you need a mixer, or the other features of the d-box are superior to what you are using now, I don't see the point. I don't know what mic and mic pre you are using, but I think you will find more of the "missing link" in that area firstly, and maybe quality plugins second.

After listening to some of your songs, I would focus on tweaking good eq's, compressors, to get your mix sounding good, and then concentrate on the judicious use of mastering compressors/limiters, and possibly something like the slate virtual console collection or similar.
http://www.slatedigital.com/vcc.php

*Your songs sound very well done imo, I don't hear any basic equipment problems, so plugins might be the way to go in the search of the holy grail,lol!

I think your tIme and money are better spent learning to use the gear that you already have to its fullest. It is possible that what you are "missing" is simply practice and experience. Throwing money and gear at that won't help.

There's plenty of folks getting placements with their music that do everything in the box.

It's not the gear, its developing the ear and the chops. Save your money!

Just my 3c


Mazz

mazz wrote:I think your tIme and money are better spent learning to use the gear that you already have to its fullest. It is possible that what you are "missing" is simply practice and experience. Throwing money and gear at that won't help.

There's plenty of folks getting placements with their music that do everything in the box.

It's not the gear, its developing the ear and the chops. Save your money!

Just my 3c


Mazz

Sometimes it is the gear, or it used to be. I don't know how many hours I have wasted with crap gear and my confidence shattered thinking "it was me" when actually it WAS the gear,lol! The worse thing is when you're just starting out and don't know what the gear should sound like. The ideal is if beginners could rent first. In 4th grade it was a requirement to play the flutophone. It killed my interest in wanting to join band in the 5th grade,lol!
"The Flutophone is the perfect way to get that "little star" started on a musical instrument..." Bullsh*t!!!
It's really everything, ear, gear, chops. Anyone know of any good flutophone recordings?

I took a listen to some of your music and It's hard to say what, for sure, is your biggest problem. I noticed though, it seems you use a lot of samples and since most of them are recorded professionally, through analog gear, a summing box isn't gonna do much for you. ALTHOUGH, the EQs on a quality mixer will probably out perform any plugins you own. I saw an interview where the mixing engineer said (not an exact quote but close enough that you'll get the exact meaning), "Come out of your comp into a mixer. At least a Mackie... that's better then nothing." Meaning, this guy is a serious analog lover. He specifically mentioned the need for "real" EQs over plugins.

IF you're gonna spend $$ on something analog, make sure it's worth it. You can never go wrong owning a quality EQ.

Knowing an equipments sweet spot, you either find it yourself, or are taught it by someone else. If you've done neither then you need to do one of those now. Learn how to use what ya have BUT... Like Lenn said, spending your time with junk gear is gonna be rough. How can you find a sweet spot IF the item don't have one... IF the best sounding part of your item still sounds bad, then the only sweet spot is... it don't sound so bad when I use it this way... that's not a good way to learn. A sweet spot will stand out as, dang that thing sounded decent BUT now... WOW. It's usually that easy to find when ya know what you're looking for. (took me a while to truly grasp this AND I still have problems finding it on cheaper gear).

Finding the sweet spot... Use the BEST thing ya have as your audio source. IF that's samples then so be it. Then load up, patch in IF outboard, your best EQ and start to play with it... you should be able to find the sweet spot. Also, do searches online for everything you own. IF you can find someone that let the cat out of the bag about your particular item then that's the best. REALLY easy to find when ya know where to look and what to do.

Also, Choose samples of high sonic quality. Nothing screams quality like good quality sounds/tones out of the gate. There's a reason they spend a lot of time picking and choosing gear in a studio prior to recording the "attempt" at final takes.

...After listening to more of your music. I have to lean towards what Mazz told you. I could be wrong, but I am hearing a lack of "knowing what to do" more than I am hearing the need for a specific item. As far as equipment goes, that is... BUT like I said, I have seen it, read it, from multiple reputable sources and heard it for myself... using s mixing board's EQ is superior to plugins. Just don't go buy a junk mixer that has digital EQ... it would be the same as a plugin hehe. Ya need REAL channels.

How to learn what a balanced mix sounds like... Pull a bunch of professional songs into your recording software. Cut them up into clips and have them play for only a few seconds, one into the other. Listening to MANY songs like this will teach you a "balanced" mix, as well as, how many professionals deviate from that balance for their own taste.. and for the song's needs.

Also, IF you don't own an EQ that is obviously amazing sounding then you should be making cuts with your cleanest EQ and RARELY boosting. IF ya want more treble.. cut the bass! Only boost when you absolutely need to. And look into getting yourself a pro EQ that sounds great!!

Good luck in all you do... keep on keepin' on hehe... you're quite good.

EDIT: Also, be EXTREMELY wary of amateurs doing shoots outs. Half those idiots don't have a clue... IF I take a Ford Escort and a Ferrari and I drive them both, accelerating slowly and only take them to 30mph on a straight line... the Ferrari will seem like a waste of money, other then looks and the expensive gear... it's all about pushing it properly. It's about using that headroom and working the sweet spots.

some good advice here. for me too. cause that new shiny gear sounds pretty hip.

if you want to sum in analogue when you mix, the Dangerous stuff is going to be some of the best you can get. Jono Manson here in santa fe sums through a Dangerous 2 Bus-LT, but he also has 16 channels on an Apogee Symphony I/O for conversion to feed it, and a raft of quality mics, preamps, and outboard compressors for some whiz-bang sounds in the first place.

My opinion: if you don't have decent convertors, then you have to wonder if taking it out of the digital domain is helping much.

If you stay digital, the Slate Digital VCC is still on sale for $179, so that would be a good thing to check out first. I like the way it works. slate is coming out with a Virtual Tape plugin too.

if you are looking for analogue options check out Black Lion audio as well. summing, preamps, convertors, and upgrades to existing gear.

I listened to some of your music o. Soundcloud. I think you have a cool aesthetic and vision for your music. Yes it sounds pretty digital but that's not a bad thing necessarily. You have a fondness for the 2 to 6 kHz range, you tend to pile a lot of sound into that range, which brings me to my main point:

Your music sounds like you arranged and mixed it and that's not necessarily your strongest suit right now, particularly arrangement (my opinion, take it or leave it). What I hear when I click randomly on the timeline in on most of your songs is pretty much the same sounds and textures I hear at very beginning of the songs. There is a disconnect between the creativity in your writing and the creativity in your arrangements. I think you could be much bolder and varied in your choices which would make the songs build and ebb and flow better and make them more interesting to listen to. I hear the same loop, bass line, bells, keyboard lines, etc, from beginning to end for 3 to 4 minutes in some of them. The vocal treatments are the same as well.

To the point of your thread, if you were a better arranger, your mixes would have more space In them and your need for summing would be much less because the stacking of all those bright sounds wouldn't be going on for the entire song.

This is common with folks tha do their own everything. Not everyone is awesome at every aspect of writing and production.

I only say all of this because I really like your music and I think it could be improved by spending time really going deep on the arrangements and production as you did in the writing. I'm nudging you to dig deeper because the stuff could be even better than it already is.

I stand by my assertion that you don't need to get a summing amp unless you have 1500.00 you don't need laying around. If you do, consider hiring a producer for a couple of songs instead. What you would learn from that would be priceless.

Hth,

Mazz

mazz wrote:I listened to some of your music o. Soundcloud. I think you have a cool aesthetic and vision for your music. Yes it sounds pretty digital but that's not a bad thing necessarily. You have a fondness for the 2 to 6 kHz range, you tend to pile a lot of sound into that range, which brings me to my main point:

Your music sounds like you arranged and mixed it and that's not necessarily your strongest suit right now, particularly arrangement (my opinion, take it or leave it). What I hear when I click randomly on the timeline in on most of your songs is pretty much the same sounds and textures I hear at very beginning of the songs. There is a disconnect between the creativity in your writing and the creativity in your arrangements. I think you could be much bolder and varied in your choices which would make the songs build and ebb and flow better and make them more interesting to listen to. I hear the same loop, bass line, bells, keyboard lines, etc, from beginning to end for 3 to 4 minutes in some of them. The vocal treatments are the same as well.

To the point of your thread, if you were a better arranger, your mixes would have more space In them and your need for summing would be much less because the stacking of all those bright sounds wouldn't be going on for the entire song.

This is common with folks tha do their own everything. Not everyone is awesome at every aspect of writing and production.

I only say all of this because I really like your music and I think it could be improved by spending time really going deep on the arrangements and production as you did in the writing. I'm nudging you to dig deeper because the stuff could be even better than it already is.

I stand by my assertion that you don't need to get a summing amp unless you have 1500.00 you don't need laying around. If you do, consider hiring a producer for a couple of songs instead. What you would learn from that would be priceless.

Hth,

Mazz

I thought this was an EXCELLENT assessment...

I guess I am going to answer the original question.

Yes, I have a old Soundcraft 800B that I brought back from the dead, recapped, and replaced the front end ICs with Burr Brown ICs. I don't think there is a right or wrong way whether you mix ITB or OTB. I like what the EQ on this board does for some things, I like what some of my hardware comperssors do to some things.... I still do some EQ, Track volume level automation, and a lot of editing ITB... I am running 2 Behringer ADA8000 A to D to A converters into a old Frontier Dakota card... I also have a M-Audio box that give me 2 more ins and outs. I use these only as line inputs, For mic pres I use the pres on the Soundcraft, or a couple of other boutique type pres I own. I can track 20 mono lines at once, and I get 20 mono channels at mix down.... not professional equipment by any stretch... but I get pretty acceptable results for what I want to hear, definately Broadcast quality...

Do you need to sum in analog to get acceptable results..... NO....

I enjoy mixing, and still do some live mixing as well..... I like to do it this way, .... I enjoy it..!!!!

Just my humble opinion