vocal volume advice for film/tv songs

[boatrider]

Hi friends...
I am deeply depressed that I recently had two songs returned because of vocal volume not loud enough. The listing was for film/tv.
I intentionally set the vocal volume so you can clearly hear the emotion and the lyrics but not too loud or hot to distract the viewers from the scene.
Is there anyone that has received feedback like this for film/tv songs...to have the vocals more upfront?
Does anyone have any advice for me, for film/tv vocal volume or how to guess if the screener will think they are loud enough?

[Casey H]

Hi friends...
I am deeply depressed that I recently had two songs returned because of vocal volume not loud enough. The listing was for film/tv.
I intentionally set the vocal volume so you can clearly hear the emotion and the lyrics but not too loud or hot to distract the viewers from the scene.
Is there anyone that has received feedback like this for film/tv songs...to have the vocals more upfront?
Does anyone have any advice for me, for film/tv vocal volume or how to guess if the screener will think they are loud enough?

Hi
Could you post a link to the songs so we can hear and talk about it?

Casey

[mazz]

That's a tough call and yes, I'd like to hear the mix to get a clearer picture of what the screener was hearing.

I don't do a lot of songs right now, but if I were to do so, I would still probably mix them as if they were a record, even for film and tv submissions. My thinking is: I can't control how the song is going to be used, whether it's a feature or a background, all I can control is that my mix still holds up when it's turned down and that the balance is good for the song as it stands on it's own. Since I would also always have an instrumental mix available, the editors could cut between them if they need to push the music into the background under some dialog, for instance.

Just watch some TV and film and pay attention to the mixes of the songs on there. I've never heard a song that sounded like it was mixed for a background and when a song is featured, the lyrics and vocal are always super audible and understandable. I think we have to trust that if our music is good enough to get through and get placed, that the pros that are handing the production will know what to do with it.

Besides, you'll have everything backed up and available in case they ask for a remix anyway.

I'm sure there's other opinions out there on production styles for songs for film/TV. I'm pretty well versed in instrumental stuff but have yet to venture into songs specifically for film/TV.

Let's hear those songs!!

Mazz

[Len911]

I don't know why you wouldn't strive for "radio-ready". I think your strategy is doomed if you try to take the engineering out of the hands of the film/tv sound engineers, I'm sure they have volume controls, ducking, compression and other tools to fit the song to the scene, it is their area of expertise. Whomever chooses the songs to be used are probably not going to choose songs they can't hear. I would presume the screeners aren't looking for pre-engineered songs either. I would try mixing your vocals for what Boatrider thinks works and sounds the best to Boatrider and offering those up and going from there, and I think you'll be at least in the same ballpark if not right on the money.

oops posted at the same time,lol, I second what Mazz said!

[boatrider]

Thanks so much guys, I really appreciate the feedback,
Mazz, those are really good points...
I've got a lot to learn

here's a link to the songs, the same mixes I submitted to Taxi,
http://www.reverbnation.com/kitescrows
they are the first two songs on the playlist
Paper Chains
Found Some Color

these two songs also receive a lot of airplay on NPR and community radio across Oregon and N. California

[billg1]

Great songs! i have to agree that the vocals are too low, and this is coming from someone who doesn't really like super upfront vocals.
In the louder parts the vocals are "almost there" but in the quieter passages in the early verses it's waaaay low. Just a guess but I would say that you could boost overall by around 2db and then still have to ride them up in the quieter parts. (and at 2db you might have to dip a little in the louder parts) IMO riding them (automation) would be better in your situation than trying to compress too much. Your songs are nice . . . warm and dynamic. A little bit of compression would be ok but too much compression could risk killing the vibe I think.

[mojobone]

Indie artists jes' generally tend to treat vocals like an instrument in the mix, (the Rolling Stones pioneered the technique, back when they were an underground band, heh) but I think it's fair game to use a different mix for a TV/film submission where the lyrics will be used to support onscreen actions or emotions; we have to be able to clearly hear them. I was listening to some 60s Blue Note jazz the other day at a very low volume, and noted that as you turned it down, you'd reach a point where all you could hear was the lead instrument-this is why the "Loudness" button, once found on quality stereo hi-fi receivers, was invented.

Yeah, they're too low in the mix, maybe not by much. I'd just use a little pull-up limiting on the lead vocal to bring it up a couple dB. (a leveling amplifier like the Teletronix LA-2A or equivalent)

[boatrider]

heya folks, thanks for the help...I'm learning a lot
back to the mixing board...!
sweet!

[dotted8]

Hi Mysha, I don't want to beat a dead horse about the low vocals but just wanted to make a comment on how I really love your music! I can definitely hear your songs in film/tv because they are really good at setting an emotion (with vox volume up of course ) You've got a great sound with your trio and I really love the banjo in "Paper Chains."

[DonaldM]

Yep, I have to agree with the other comments. Great songs, but I also immediately noticed the vocals were too low on both.
But I sure could hear either of those songs as background on TV show or made for TV movie for sure! Fix mix and re-submit to another listing.