Work For Hire Question

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DBarnett
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Re: Work For Hire Question

Post by DBarnett » Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:04 pm

SeanieRanz wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:55 am


What if it's not a work for hire collaboration and the artists you worked with want to be compensated for the work? Does that complicate things for the libraries? I'm currently working on having the various artists I've worked with sign paperwork saying they own a % of the song with their PRO info in hopes that will make it easier for the publisher
[/quote]
Hi,
I am not a lawyer or expert. Here is how I have understood my library contracts (very few lol)
As long as everyone has a % agreement in writing and you have copies you're good to go. That is how they get paid, from their PRO after it has been placed and aired. It can take up to year after that placement to get paid, depending on your PRO
My experience has been that you will complete the writers portion of the contract with all the writers listed, their PRO (their PRO IPI number) and their % share
You control the Master and everyone's interest in that piece. Your agreement with cowriters should state that and it should be understood.
If it is a WFH you need to have WFH contracts on file in case someone says "Hey, I'm on that track, where's my money/royalties?" Especially for singers
You could then show that the person's contribution was a WFH
You may want to consult a Music Attorney. Make a list of your questions and get as much info as possible for the money :D
I hope this helps

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Re: Work For Hire Question

Post by SeanieRanz » Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:17 pm

DBarnett wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:04 pm
SeanieRanz wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:55 am


What if it's not a work for hire collaboration and the artists you worked with want to be compensated for the work? Does that complicate things for the libraries? I'm currently working on having the various artists I've worked with sign paperwork saying they own a % of the song with their PRO info in hopes that will make it easier for the publisher
Hi,
I am not a lawyer or expert. Here is how I have understood my library contracts (very few lol)
As long as everyone has a % agreement in writing and you have copies you're good to go. That is how they get paid, from their PRO after it has been placed and aired. It can take up to year after that placement to get paid, depending on your PRO
My experience has been that you will complete the writers portion of the contract with all the writers listed, their PRO (their PRO IPI number) and their % share
You control the Master and everyone's interest in that piece. Your agreement with cowriters should state that and it should be understood.
If it is a WFH you need to have WFH contracts on file in case someone says "Hey, I'm on that track, where's my money/royalties?" Especially for singers
You could then show that the person's contribution was a WFH
You may want to consult a Music Attorney. Make a list of your questions and get as much info as possible for the money :D
I hope this helps
[/quote]

Thank you so much. This response helped me understand where I should go from here!

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Re: Work For Hire Question

Post by Casey H » Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:18 pm

AlanHall wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:29 pm
Take this from a "not expert";

what I've heard/read is that any contributor not signing a WFH agreement must have a PRO, so that splits can be assigned. Additionally, it's easier on the libs if the co-writers have also signed a document allowing you to negotiate licensing the works on their behalf. I'm not sure what legal items need be checked off on a doc like that.
That route has issues. If you paid someone a fee to play a part as WFH, you generally don't want to also share royalties as well. It can be done, but basically they are getting paid twice. It's usually either/or. Either they are a co-writer and get no upfront, only royalties if used OR they are WFH, getting a fee and forgoing any/all rights beyond that. So if I paid someone $150 and they don't want to sign WFH, are they willing to give back the money to become a co-writer? And do I even want that?

If someone is non-cooperative as far as signing a WFH, and you make them a co-writer (that's what splits on PRO means), how cooperative will they pay signing off on contracts? Their signature would be required on all contracts. Yes, they could sign a POA as you mentioned, assuming they are willing (don't assume they are) BUT some libraries won't accept those. It's best to assume you need every co-writer's signature all the time.

The bottom line is: Get these details worked out up front. Going back to someone for a signature of any kind later can be difficult.

Best,
:D Caseey

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Re: Work For Hire Question

Post by funsongs » Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:07 pm

Casey H wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:18 pm
The bottom line is: Get these details worked out up front. Going back to someone for a signature of any kind later can be difficult.
Yep - lesson learnt the hard way: if you are only doing a WFH, be sure to get the signed document BEFORE paying them - as a condition of the hire.
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Re: Work For Hire Question

Post by AlanHall » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:28 pm

Casey H wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:18 pm
That route has issues.
I wasn't suggesting that a contributor would (or should) be offered the choice of WFH or splits. There's got to be some sense of "above/below the line" regarding creative input.
I agree heartily that conditions and agreements should be put into place before pressing 'record'. Have I approached the singers I know about tracking some of my songs? No. Have I thought about it? Sure, and the cautionary tales I've read here have been quite instructive.

Thanks much for the discussion.

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Re: Work For Hire Question

Post by Casey H » Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:39 pm

DBarnett wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:04 pm
As long as everyone has a % agreement in writing and you have copies you're good to go. That is how they get paid, from their PRO after it has been placed and aired. It can take up to year after that placement to get paid, depending on your PRO
My experience has been that you will complete the writers portion of the contract with all the writers listed, their PRO (their PRO IPI number) and their % share
You control the Master and everyone's interest in that piece. Your agreement with cowriters should state that and it should be understood.
If it is a WFH you need to have WFH contracts on file in case someone says "Hey, I'm on that track, where's my money/royalties?" Especially for singers
You could then show that the person's contribution was a WFH
You may want to consult a Music Attorney. Make a list of your questions and get as much info as possible for the money :D
I hope this helps
Hi. This is incorrect. Your personal percentage agreements are additional protection in case of dispute but are pretty much meaningless in terms of how people get paid. Yes, the song gets registered with PRO with the writers and the percentage splits. That will determine how back end performance royalties get paid on the song. But in most cases YOU do not control everyone's interest and the master. It's generally split between all writers. If you sign a library/publishing deal, it will between the publisher and all co-writers and all co-writers are required to sign the contract. People sometimes have their co-writers sign a power of attorney document allowing you to sign contracts for the song, but I've found that some libraries won't accept that. They want all signatures.

Best,
:D Casey

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Re: Work For Hire Question

Post by DBarnett » Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:33 am

Casey H wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:39 pm
DBarnett wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:04 pm
As long as everyone has a % agreement in writing and you have copies you're good to go. That is how they get paid, from their PRO after it has been placed and aired. It can take up to year after that placement to get paid, depending on your PRO
My experience has been that you will complete the writers portion of the contract with all the writers listed, their PRO (their PRO IPI number) and their % share
You control the Master and everyone's interest in that piece. Your agreement with cowriters should state that and it should be understood.
If it is a WFH you need to have WFH contracts on file in case someone says "Hey, I'm on that track, where's my money/royalties?" Especially for singers
You could then show that the person's contribution was a WFH
You may want to consult a Music Attorney. Make a list of your questions and get as much info as possible for the money :D
I hope this helps
Hi. This is incorrect. Your personal percentage agreements are additional protection in case of dispute but are pretty much meaningless in terms of how people get paid. Yes, the song gets registered with PRO with the writers and the percentage splits. That will determine how back end performance royalties get paid on the song. But in most cases YOU do not control everyone's interest and the master. It's generally split between all writers. If you sign a library/publishing deal, it will between the publisher and all co-writers and all co-writers are required to sign the contract. People sometimes have their co-writers sign a power of attorney document allowing you to sign contracts for the song, but I've found that some libraries won't accept that. They want all signatures.

Best,
:D Casey
I stand corrected :D Thank you Casey
That was true with my first library contract 2010, all cowriters signed the contract.
I have since signed with a couple of new libraries and they have not asked for the cowriters to do contracts
I even asked one if they wanted a contract with the co and they said it was not necessary, they just needed their PRO info...
This is a Non Exclusive deal but I wouldn't think that matters??

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Re: Work For Hire Question

Post by cassmcentee » Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:16 am

Those libraries (not requiring contracts from cowriters) are taking an irresponsible Risk
Their days may be Numbered
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Re: Work For Hire Question

Post by Casey H » Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:18 am

cassmcentee wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:16 am
Those libraries (not requiring contracts from cowriters) are taking an irresponsible Risk
Their days may be Numbered
Not necessarily (as far as days being numbered). I've seen this a lot with RF libraries whereby they pay you and you pay your co-writers. But it's not very common with the "higher end" (for lack of a better term) broadcast oriented libraries. The point is, never assume that your co-writers won't be required to sign future deals. That will cause you a lot of grief later. And Cass, yes... It does seem a bit risky. I'm sure when you sign the contract you attest that you have properly listed co-writers and are responsible for paying then, have the right to do this, etc. Personally, if it was my company, I would never do it that way.

Best,
:D Casey

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Re: Work For Hire Question

Post by guscave » Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:27 am

Long story short, get all your paperwork in order before you even present it to a library. I know a couple of libraries that simply will not call you again if you send them something that is not 100% cleared. So if your working with a collaborator, discuss the details upfront. If it's a WFH and you can't get a signed agreement, you are probably better off dumping that song and start fresh instead of taking a chance of loosing out on future work with a library.

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