Would Kurt Cobain have made a deal in here?

A cozy place to hang out and discuss all things music.

Moderators: admin, mdc, TAXIstaff

User avatar
cosmicdolphin
Serious Musician
Serious Musician
Posts: 4450
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:46 pm
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Would Kurt Cobain have made a deal in here?

Post by cosmicdolphin » Fri May 28, 2021 11:08 am

No. He is dead.

superblonde
Impressive
Impressive
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Would Kurt Cobain have made a deal in here?

Post by superblonde » Fri May 28, 2021 11:47 am

Cameloide wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 10:51 am
Anybody that can lock in harmonies like she did has to have a phenomenal ear.
Most vocalists can do that. By their teen years.
. . . www.superblonde.org "All Kale Seitan! ♭II ‼" -Moshpit Chant of the Vegan Metalhead

superblonde
Impressive
Impressive
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Would Kurt Cobain have made a deal in here?

Post by superblonde » Fri May 28, 2021 12:10 pm

Joni Mitchell and Kurt Cobain are very similar.
- both destroyed by drug addiction
- both naturally born artists
- both used music as a way of expressing art, not music as itself
- both were highly technical guitar players
- both did not know extensive music theory or write with it
- both wrote melodies by ear
- both had highly unique lyrics based around metaphors and mood painting
- both were blonde 😇
- both fit perfectly into the rising demographic of the time (rise of folk, rise of subpop)

Joni Mitchell wrote and played by ear, not by theory, she would tune her guitar to match a melody in her head, to create unique sounds, not by an diatonic method, i.e.
" John Simon, who served as the musical director for The Last Waltz, remembers: “the chords she played on the guitar were not standard. The guys would look at her left hand and go, ‘what?’ I remember this one quote from her: I said ‘What’s that chord?’ and she said ‘I don’t know the name of it. I tune my guitar this way, to make myself stupid’, in other words to not fall into predetermined patterns. I had to figure out what the chords were, then figure out some way for the guys to play something that meshed with her”. "


This is sometimes called 'sound over function' i.e. writing chords which do not have 'proper' tonal function, yet evoke the desired sound.

One difference is that Cobain specifically set out to write songs which would take over the mainstream, i.e. purposely using Boston's chord progression in an attempt to create the most perfect rock song. Mitchell in comparison seemed unaware that she could do anything popular.
. . . www.superblonde.org "All Kale Seitan! ♭II ‼" -Moshpit Chant of the Vegan Metalhead

Patrick
Impressive
Impressive
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:40 pm
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Would Kurt Cobain have made a deal in here?

Post by Patrick » Fri May 28, 2021 2:24 pm

<cue low voice> "Put up a parking lot" <cue fake laugh> "AHhahHahhahHaHa!!!!"
Bad art can make you laugh
Good art can make you think
Great art can destroy you

- Me

(Did he just quote himself?? Yes! Yes I did!)

User avatar
Zaychi
Committed Musician
Committed Musician
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:09 am
Gender: Male
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Would Kurt Cobain have made a deal in here?

Post by Zaychi » Sat May 29, 2021 5:13 am

Cobain not branching out of his genre? Even in his notably VERY short career, and making grunge which was selling well and loved by millions of people, he took the risk of doing MTV Unplugged... just a guy alone on a bar stool (iirc). It is now considered one of his best and most respected recordings, with no wall of drums and distorted guitars at all. I'm pretty sure he could have surprised us many more times, had he lived longer.

Cobain not able to handle returns? Any successful artist has had to work hard to get where he got, including many disappointments and setbacks. Given his hard youth and where he managed to end up, I'm pretty sure every return would have made him stronger and more determined to get it right next time.

Cobain and Mitchell just randomly picking their guitars and accidently producing hugely successful masterpieces? This is just a form of jealousy, usually spoken by people who never produced a masterpiece themselves. "I'm actually just as good as them, I just never had that lucky roll of the dice". Sure man, dream on.

Cameloide
Getting Busy
Getting Busy
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:09 pm
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Would Kurt Cobain have made a deal in here?

Post by Cameloide » Sat May 29, 2021 9:02 am

superblonde wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 11:47 am
Cameloide wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 10:51 am
Anybody that can lock in harmonies like she did has to have a phenomenal ear.
Most vocalists can do that. By their teen years.
Lol. In my experience that is not the case. Most people that call themselves vocalist can't even nail the center of pitches when singing melody. Half of them can't even hear a harmony much less lock it in like Jacob Collier.

15 years ago I couldn't hear the difference; now after years of ear training I can, and it's plain as day.

Patrick
Impressive
Impressive
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:40 pm
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Would Kurt Cobain have made a deal in here?

Post by Patrick » Sat May 29, 2021 9:32 am

Alanis was a disco Queen before she decided to join the "I'm so miserable and frustrated" grunge bandwagon.

It worked for her. She fooled a lot of people and sold a zillion albums.
Bad art can make you laugh
Good art can make you think
Great art can destroy you

- Me

(Did he just quote himself?? Yes! Yes I did!)

superblonde
Impressive
Impressive
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Would Kurt Cobain have made a deal in here?

Post by superblonde » Sat May 29, 2021 10:14 am

Zappa would never be able to do it.

beabadoobee wouldn't be able to do it. Amy Winehouse either.

Dave Mustaine did. In an interview he describes watching wrestling and not thinking too highly of the wrestlers' theme songs so he decided to write some sports themes himself to spec and they were used for at least a year.
. . . www.superblonde.org "All Kale Seitan! ♭II ‼" -Moshpit Chant of the Vegan Metalhead

User avatar
cosmicdolphin
Serious Musician
Serious Musician
Posts: 4450
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:46 pm
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Would Kurt Cobain have made a deal in here?

Post by cosmicdolphin » Sat May 29, 2021 10:33 am

Cameloide wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 9:02 am
Lol. In my experience that is not the case. Most people that call themselves vocalist can't even nail the center of pitches when singing melody. Half of them can't even hear a harmony much less lock it in like Jacob Collier.

15 years ago I couldn't hear the difference; now after years of ear training I can, and it's plain as day.
Yep...most of them don't believe you when you tell them either

Cameloide
Getting Busy
Getting Busy
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:09 pm
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Would Kurt Cobain have made a deal in here?

Post by Cameloide » Sat May 29, 2021 10:38 am

superblonde wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 12:10 pm
Joni Mitchell and Kurt Cobain are very similar.
- both destroyed by drug addiction
- both naturally born artists
- both used music as a way of expressing art, not music as itself
- both were highly technical guitar players
- both did not know extensive music theory or write with it
- both wrote melodies by ear
- both had highly unique lyrics based around metaphors and mood painting
- both were blonde 😇
- both fit perfectly into the rising demographic of the time (rise of folk, rise of subpop)

Joni Mitchell wrote and played by ear, not by theory, she would tune her guitar to match a melody in her head, to create unique sounds, not by an diatonic method, i.e.
" John Simon, who served as the musical director for The Last Waltz, remembers: “the chords she played on the guitar were not standard. The guys would look at her left hand and go, ‘what?’ I remember this one quote from her: I said ‘What’s that chord?’ and she said ‘I don’t know the name of it. I tune my guitar this way, to make myself stupid’, in other words to not fall into predetermined patterns. I had to figure out what the chords were, then figure out some way for the guys to play something that meshed with her”. "


This is sometimes called 'sound over function' i.e. writing chords which do not have 'proper' tonal function, yet evoke the desired sound.

One difference is that Cobain specifically set out to write songs which would take over the mainstream, i.e. purposely using Boston's chord progression in an attempt to create the most perfect rock song. Mitchell in comparison seemed unaware that she could do anything popular.
I'm sorry but each response is making it more obvious that you don't know what you're talking about.

Kurt's addiction drove him to death at 27. Joni Mitchell is still kicking at 77 and probably still smoking cigs.

Neither were "highly technical guitar players", especially not Kurt. He was the exact opposite of that.

Yes they both used "metaphors and mood painting" in lyrics. Who doesn't? The difference is Joni was a lyrical genius and Kurt was an average rock lyricist, unlike his peer
Chris Cornell. And she was an actual "painter" to boot.

Joni went from a form of "folk" music to writing/playing with some of the greatest jazz players to ever walk the planet...Jaco Pastorius, Pat Metheny, Charles Mingus, etc.

- "Joni Mitchell wrote and played by ear, not by theory..." That's just normal. Even the great classical minds that knew theory inside and out would hear the music in their
heads 1st and then write it down. They might use their knowledge of music theory to help solve a problem if they hit a stumbling block. But trying to use theory to write is
a sure fire way to write something that won't be any good, though it can be pretty useful when working on an arrangement. People make/discover music 1st and then in an
attempt to analyze and explain how it works they devised music theory. Nobody came up with the rules for Jazz 1st and then used that to make the classics, although it sounds
like a lot of the new Jazz is made in that order and that's probably why it sucks.

If what you're saying is true that "Cobain specifically set out to write songs which would take over the mainstream" by using a Boston chord progression (which seems kinda
cheap to me and to go against the notion of being the Alternative to the mainstream) then he succeeded admirably. But why would you assume Joni had the same motivation?
She wrote a hit when David Gefffen kept asking for one, but maybe pop success wasn't her prime motivator.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests