Choosing a PRO

[slideboardouts]

Hi Nick,
Second, if you write music for commercials, then as of this writing, BMI is probably not for you! We're with BMI and JUST found this out after writing 4 songs for a major production music library. After they signed our songs, they told us nearly all of their "advertising composers" are members of ASCAP. We had NO idea! It gets complicated, but basically the rule is this: if the commercial has a voice-over come in BEFORE 30 seconds, THEN BMI will pay back-end. Well, MOST commercials we've seen have a voice over come in before that 30-second mark. But, if you're concentrating on writing for film/tv, then BMI is a good bet.

In my experience, this isn't quite right. More than likely, unless maybe you land a HUGE ad campaign, you aren't going to see royalties with either BMI or ASCAP. All you get are these little AFM wage/royalty things. And you don't always get those, at least half of the time all you get is the fee for producing the music with no residuals whatsoever. I'm with BMI and have done a few commercials (finishing my 5th right now) and never received any royalties from them. A friend of mine is with ASCAP and has never received ASCAP royalties from any commercials either. Both regional and national commercials, with no voice overs, with voice overs that start at the beginning, voice overs that start at the end... basically any combination of things you can think of for a 30 second spot and all have one thing in common: NO royalties from BMI OR ASCAP.

Also (just FYI for the general population out there reading this), even if it were completely true that BMI doesn't pay royalties on commercials and ASCAP did, I wouldn't let that influence your choice of PRO too much. Commercials are NOT the cash cow that a lot of people seem to think they are. Sure, there are commercials that will pay 10-$25,000, but those are the exception, not the rule. The most I've made off of a single commercial is $3,500. But most are in the $1,500-$2,500 range. And they are not a steady source of income like your royalty statements from film/TV. At this point, I look at them like "bonuses." You could demo 10 commercials in a year and not win a single one. Or you could go a whole year and not even get a single opportunity to pitch to a commercial. You just never know.

Generally, if you do ONLY instrumental music, there is a very slight advantage in ASCAP. As stated above by Vance and Tracy, the advantage increases if you work mostly in advertising. If your output is mostly songs, (with lyrics) BMI may be a better bet.

I've actually heard the exact opposite, multiple times. I read in a book somewhere that the formula ASCAP uses actually favors song writers over instrumentalists. Like they give more weight to songs with vocals than BMI does. One of my vocal song collaborators is with ASCAP, so next statement he should have some of our placements show up and we will be able to compare. At least on a couple of placements anyways. I'll post if there is any major differences, but I have a feeling there won't be.

If a BMI writer collaborates with an ASCAP writer, what happens?

Same thing that happens if an ASCAP writer collaborates with another ASCAP writer or a BMI writer collaborates with another BMI writer. The publisher registers the title under each writers PRO and if/when the cue gets placed, each writer will be paid by their respective PRO.

As far as which PRO to pick I really don't think it matters. ASCAP has the cue sheet function which is cool, BMI has more detailed statements which can come in handy... but as far as collecting money I really don't think there is any significant difference. There are a lot of happy ASCAP members as well as a lot of p*ssed off ASCAP members. The same can be said of BMI.

-Steve

[T&V Marino]

Yes, you are correct. Most publishers are members of all three PROs, as well as some of the international societies like SOCAN, PRS, etc. However, as a songwriter/composer, you can only be a member of one PRO. But...

You can always change your PRO! There is a two-year window. For example, if you join BMI this year, but in 2013 you decide you'd like to join SESAC, you can. A good friend of ours was ASCAP for many years, then switched to BMI, and last year switched back to ASCAP.

And one of our mentors, Composer Adam Zelkind, was a long-time, award-winning BMI composer. His BMI rep actually took him aside when he started becoming VERY successful and suggested he change to ASCAP, which he did. Other well-known songwriters and composers have told us similar stories -- changing from ASCAP to BMI, SESAC to ASCAP, and just about every other combination!

Are you dazed and confused yet?

~ Tracey & Vance

[slideboardouts]

And one of our mentors, Composer Adam Zelkind, was a long-time, award-winning BMI composer. His BMI rep actually took him aside when he started becoming VERY successful and suggested he change to ASCAP, which he did.

THAT is VERY interesting! Any specific reasons his BMI rep told him to switch over?

[T&V Marino]

Yes, it was because the BMI rep told Adam, "You'll make more money." As simple as that. Not sure WHY he would make more money, however! Adam scores several shows concurrently for MTV. (We have a future lunch date with him so if we find out, we'll let you know. )

It's weird, but it's good to know that when you get into that league, the PROs are helpful.

~ T&V

[mojobone]

Generally, if you do ONLY instrumental music, there is a very slight advantage in ASCAP. As stated above by Vance and Tracy, the advantage increases if you work mostly in advertising. If your output is mostly songs, (with lyrics) BMI may be a better bet.

I've actually heard the exact opposite, multiple times. I read in a book somewhere that the formula ASCAP uses actually favors song writers over instrumentalists. Like they give more weight to songs with vocals than BMI does. One of my vocal song collaborators is with ASCAP, so next statement he should have some of our placements show up and we will be able to compare. At least on a couple of placements anyways. I'll post if there is any major differences, but I have a feeling there won't be.


-Steve

I stand corrected. Thanks, Steve! There is really only one significant advantage with BMI then; when self-publishing, you don't need to also register as a publisher and pay a fee. I think ASCAP's application processing fee is $35 each for a writer and publisher membership; details on their website. ($75 each if you use snail mail) Sounds like this lack of back end is the reason we still see significant licensing fees in advertising; good to know.

[T&V Marino]

Hi Russell,

You asked what happens when a BMI writers collaborates with an ASCAP writer? It's not a problem. Just be sure to register the song with BOTH PROS and that the splits are correct (50/50, etc.) We have several friends and publishers who have done this. Interestingly, they said that there are usually discrepancies in their royalty checks, but eventually it all balances out.

For example, one of our friends and his co-writer got a song placement in a popular daytime soap opera last year. He's BMI and his co-writer is ASCAP. He received a check for $1,200 and his co-writer received $400. Quite a difference!

Also, regarding the arguments above paying on commercials, the information we received was not from some book or hearsay. Instead, it was from the LEGAL department of a MAJOR production music library -- a former attorney who works full-time licensing music and collecting the royalties for that music library and for the composers & songwriters. This person would not have told us this information if it weren't a true FACT. Most of the composers who write for commercials for this library are with ASCAP.

It's confusing.

~ T&V

[cherbear]

Great thread, and great information everybody! Thank you all!

Cher