Does TAXI have a responsibility to stand up for us

[coxnvox]

This has been on my mind for a couple weeks so I thought I'd just spit it out here and maybe feel better just for having written it...There was a Dispatch listing a couple weeks ago that really bothered me. The listing was for a TV show, I think, and they already had a song temped. It was a little bit of an obscure song, too. But they wanted a very close feel and tempo to the original, even going so far as to saying "acoustic intro, drums in at 30 seconds" etc. It occurred to me that the chances of someone having something lying around that matched what they were asking for would be almost nil, and I sure didn't even the it's basically a style I can do. So I mapped out in my mind: 1) Compose the piece - 2 hours2) Call and schedule a drummer and a guitar player - 1/2 hour3) Track drums, guitar - 3 hours4) Add bass, keys, extra perc, etc. on my own - 3 hours5) Mix - 1 hour6) Master - 1/2 hourTotal hours - 102 session players at $25/hr for 3 hours total - $75Studio time in my home studio at $25/hr for 8 hours - $200So I've now invested a full day and I would say minimally $275 to submit to this listing...the payoff? The chance to get $100-$150 IF they would happen to choose it! And I've got a piece of music that is so specific to this producer's needs that it's unlikely I'd be able to get it placed again...My question really is, would it be inappropriate for TAXI to tell a music producer: "Hey, you are really undervaluing the time, equipment, talent, money and effort that is required to get the result you want. It's not fair to ask our artists to have to PAY for a CHANCE to get their music used by you." Obviously, they would be a little more diplomatic about it than me, but that's the gist of it.I guess I just shudder to think that some artists would be so desperate for a placement that they would be willing to sell us all out by working for less than slave wages.Ok, I DO feel better!Thanks,kerry

[aubreyz]

Kerry,I can understand how you feel, but remember you are only seeing this from your perspective. First of all, Taxi provided the info that the budget was only $150 for this usage, so it's not like it was some kind of trick to get submissions for nothing. As I recall, the listing was for an internet show or something like that. Personally, I don't want Taxi deciding for me what's worth my time or not. If the client has a limited budget, then let me know that and I'll decide whether or not it's worth pitching to.There was a time in my career that I would have invested (and often did) much more time and materials than you listed for something that made me very little cash -- if the credit or contact was something I could use to either get more business, or pad my resume. At this point, unless I had a track laying around that would fit with little or no effort, then submitting for something like this wouldn't be worth it for me. However, I'm sure there are others who would like the chance even if it meant no upfront profit.This is a game of relationships and exposure. Sometimes your investment can't be compared in actual dollar per dollar analysis.It's not selling out for "slave wages" if someone is investing in their future by developing relationships and getting credits. Their are plenty of opportunities out their for Indie films and this kind of stuff that have little or no budget. IMHO Taxi does a pretty good job of giving us the info we need to decide if an opportunity is worth investing in or not.Aub

[sgs4u]

Quote:.I guess I just shudder to think that some artists would be so desperate for a placement that they would be willing to sell us all out by working for less than slave wages.kerryStart shuddering, it happens lots. And I agree with you butIt also would be a great idea for you try to understand why they do this. You will never be able to control how everyone operates. You can jump on a soap box and say things should be like this... or that. Who will listen?Asking or hoping that Taxi will fly your political flag, is a no-brainer. It's a business, and they do quite a great job at a lot of things. But Taxi can't do everything for every artist's wishes. There could be a case made that even this forum and Taxi contribute to the problem you are talking about. If you have 1,000,000 new farmers all growing the same crop, the price goes down. If you have 10,000 musicians with home studios churning out great work, the fees (per piece) paid to them, eventually go down. From my perspective, the great work that Taxi does far outweighs any bad. I have learned more about writing music and selling it in the last 8 months of my membership, than 35 years of being a full-time musician/producer/writer. And most of new knowledge I have acquired is actually from the people on this forum. You work a lot faster than I do. Congratulations on that all by itself.

[davewalton]

Quote:This has been on my mind for a couple weeks so I thought I'd just spit it out here and maybe feel better just for having written it...There was a Dispatch listing a couple weeks ago that really bothered me. The listing was for a TV show, I think, and they already had a song temped. It was a little bit of an obscure song, too. But they wanted a very close feel and tempo to the original, even going so far as to saying "acoustic intro, drums in at 30 seconds" etc. It occurred to me that the chances of someone having something lying around that matched what they were asking for would be almost nil, and I sure didn't even the it's basically a style I can do. So I mapped out in my mind: 1) Compose the piece - 2 hours2) Call and schedule a drummer and a guitar player - 1/2 hour3) Track drums, guitar - 3 hours4) Add bass, keys, extra perc, etc. on my own - 3 hours5) Mix - 1 hour6) Master - 1/2 hourTotal hours - 102 session players at $25/hr for 3 hours total - $75Studio time in my home studio at $25/hr for 8 hours - $200So I've now invested a full day and I would say minimally $275 to submit to this listing...the payoff? The chance to get $100-$150 IF they would happen to choose it! And I've got a piece of music that is so specific to this producer's needs that it's unlikely I'd be able to get it placed again...My question really is, would it be inappropriate for TAXI to tell a music producer: "Hey, you are really undervaluing the time, equipment, talent, money and effort that is required to get the result you want. It's not fair to ask our artists to have to PAY for a CHANCE to get their music used by you." Obviously, they would be a little more diplomatic about it than me, but that's the gist of it.I guess I just shudder to think that some artists would be so desperate for a placement that they would be willing to sell us all out by working for less than slave wages.Ok, I DO feel better!Thanks,kerryHey Kerry,I guess I'm not following here. It's not mandatory that anyone submit for this listing so whether anyone spends any time on this is strictly their call. As for the time itself, I'm going to be writing music anyway so whether or not I choose this particular listing as the target for my writing is my choice. I'm going to be writing music anyway, so it might as well be for a real project, something specific. Which project I choose is up to me. Practically all the submissions I make for Taxi listings are written specifically for the listing. But again, that's my choice and the truth is that I'll be writing music anyway, might as well be for something specific.As far as the "costs" go... session players, if needed, are a legitimate expense, but again, at your discretion since the listing isn't mandatory and neither are the session musicians (at least not to every person submitting). Part of doing film/television music is the ability to do a wide variety of music efficiently and at minimal cost. Many don't need outside musicians and can do all of this themselves without the expenses you're incurring. They didn't require session musicians, not all submitters would need session musicians, so that would seem to be your own expense. Given the voluntary nature of the listings, "charging" for home studio time to submit music on a voluntary basis is a stretch. Same with charging for expenses like equipment, education, lessons, travel to and from education and lessons, etc.Sometime back I was doing music for a film and at the same time I was collaborating on a song with another musician. We were writing music just to write music. There was a part in the film where the song we were collaborating on would work perfectly. I suggested that we focus on finishing our song so it could be used in the film. Now all of a sudden, my co-writer asked how much he/she were going to be paid to finish the song. Well, since we were both writing the song on our own, the answer was nothing but that there was a deferred pay arrangement whereby something would get paid for the song if the film got picked up for distribution, not to mention the future value of having a music credit in a film. That's the deal I had for myself and the same applied to anyone contributing music. The co-writer refused to work "unpaid" on the song as long as it was going to be used in the film. Once the film was off the table, they cheerfully continued to work on the song just to write music. That, to me, made absolutely no sense. The upshot is that the film did pick up distribution and I'll get a nice check for my efforts in doing the entire film score, plus I already have the film credit for the music, but they missed the boat on what they would have gotten for their part of the one song. So anyway, I guess I have a different point of view. In hindsight it's one that has served me well. I've picked up opportunities that I think many others might have missed because it didn't seem to pay much, if anything, on the surface but more than paid off in the long run. It's a very "chancy" industry, more than any I've ever been involved in. The money in this industry seems to come from places that we can't quite see yet. But the choice is always ours whether we want to spend any time or money to participate in the process of having a chance. FWIW,Dave

[coxnvox]

Thanks for some great viewpoints. I guess I can't get out of my head the idea that there is a music producer out there saying to himself, "Hey, why pay $2,000 for this license when there's some stooge out there that's spent $40,000 on gear and instruments and will work his tail off just for the chance at internet exposure and a picture of Ben Franklin." I know I've spent a lot of money in order to be able to get the "broadcast quality" sound that most listings ask for. I guess it's everyone's individual opinion whether they feel they should offer something to someone at a fraction of true market value, but I can't see myself ever doing that. I think too much of my gifts and the time and money I've spent on improving my craft. And I think it hurts us all in the long run. I mean, I could let people use my studio for $5 an hour and get a ton of people in hear and hurt a lot of other businesses in the area and make a lot of contacts, but I don't think it's right, from either a business or moral standpoint.2 last thoughts...I'm not really as bitter about this as I may sound, more like mildy annoyed or disappointed and, secondly, I am certainly not thinking that I'm James Horner or Sting by any means. Later,kerry

[michael11]

Quote:Quote:.I guess I just shudder to think that some artists would be so desperate for a placement that they would be willing to sell us all out by working for less than slave wages.kerryStart shuddering, it happens lots. And I agree with you butIt also would be a great idea for you try to understand why they do this. You will never be able to control how everyone operates. You can jump on a soap box and say things should be like this... or that. Who will listen?Asking or hoping that Taxi will fly your political flag, is a no-brainer. It's a business, and they do quite a great job at a lot of things. But Taxi can't do everything for every artist's wishes. There could be a case made that even this forum and Taxi contribute to the problem you are talking about. If you have 1,000,000 new farmers all growing the same crop, the price goes down. If you have 10,000 musicians with home studios churning out great work, the fees (per piece) paid to them, eventually go down. From my perspective, the great work that Taxi does far outweighs any bad. I have learned more about writing music and selling it in the last 8 months of my membership, than 35 years of being a full-time musician/producer/writer. And most of new knowledge I have acquired is actually from the people on this forum. You work a lot faster than I do. Congratulations on that all by itself. I knew you couldn't keep away Steve!!!!

[mazz]

Hi Kerry,I agree that it sucks that some of us have invested 10s of thousands of dollars into our gear, education, etc. only to be offered peanuts for our efforts. No attorney on the planet would settle for that unless they were doing pro-bono work for some cause or another. And often musicians have much more experience at their work than a fairly green attorney who still is making 200.00 an hour or more! But, because of the lure of future fame and fortune, and the hype that the fastest computer and hottest software wil make up for talent and experience, those of us who've spent our life fortunes and energies on our craft are competing with the bedroom hobbyist for the same gigs. (I occasionally play casuals here in the SF area with musicians that have toured with some pretty heavy hitters and here we are playing a wedding or a corporate gig! These guys are mo%$#r f&^$ers on their instruments and if they were lawyers would be pulling in the huge dollars. Such is the nature of the music biz.)All that being said, I firmly believe that the cream will rise to the top and those who can overcome the adversity of the swampy lower levels of the music business can prevail and at the very least make a living doing what they love to do. We might have to spend a little more in order to make and nurture those business relationships, that's the real currency of the music business. At the beginning, the Ben Franklins may go out faster than they come in for a while.Hang in there,Mazz

[Casey H]

Quote:Does TAXI have a responsibility to stand up for usNo

[davewalton]

Quote:Thanks for some great viewpoints. I guess I can't get out of my head the idea that there is a music producer out there saying to himself, "Hey, why pay $2,000 for this license when there's some stooge out there that's spent $40,000 on gear and instruments and will work his tail off just for the chance at internet exposure and a picture of Ben Franklin." I know I've spent a lot of money in order to be able to get the "broadcast quality" sound that most listings ask for. I guess it's everyone's individual opinion whether they feel they should offer something to someone at a fraction of true market value, but I can't see myself ever doing that. I think too much of my gifts and the time and money I've spent on improving my craft. And I think it hurts us all in the long run. I mean, I could let people use my studio for $5 an hour and get a ton of people in hear and hurt a lot of other businesses in the area and make a lot of contacts, but I don't think it's right, from either a business or moral standpoint.2 last thoughts...I'm not really as bitter about this as I may sound, more like mildy annoyed or disappointed and, secondly, I am certainly not thinking that I'm James Horner or Sting by any means. Later,kerryHey Kerry,I did misunderstand some of what you were posting. I thought you were talking merely about submitting as if the listing company should be obligated for paying each of us for the time it took to develop the songs to submit. If you're talking about licensing fees for the tracks that were signed then that's a little different.Of course we all want to be paid fairly and it is frustrating when a large production company that clearly has a budget for something better, only pays insignificant licensing fees. It's one of those things where the entire deal has to be considered. If it's on a show that airs a lot, has lots of repeats and syndication stuff on various channels, a small licensing fee can be overlooked where the performance royalties will be a significant source of income for that placement.There are no real set fees for licensing, it's all over the map and doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything. The "French Laundry Detergent" thing was paying $20,000 for a 30-second music track. I think Matto posted here somewhere that a placement on some kind of news show (Dateline or something like that?) paid nothing for licensing. I don't think that a single Dateline placement is going to generate $20,000 over any period of time but it would be a better deal to get a placement on Dateline with no licensing fee than a placement in an obscure Infomercial on Pax TV that paid some kind of licensing fee.Most of Taxi's film/tv listings are pretty good, lots of placements into network television and major films. I think that Taxi has an obligation to make sure that the overall quality of the listings is above the average quality of deals that we can find on our own.

[jay10music]

Hey guys,.. I alerted Michael to this post and here is his response:Hi Forum Folks,I'm in the middle of a video shoot for something cool we're trying to do, but wanted to give a response to this. Sorry for the brevity... got a room full of people waiting.I couldn't agree more that the floor for paying musicans has been getting lower and lower for at least a couple of decades. It seems to have accelerated a LOT in the decade since home recording gear has become inexpensive and highly ubiquitous.That said, please take comfort in knowing that we turn down listings that we think have a low probability of truly helping our members -- yes, we filter the listings and companies they come from for you. I think we've had two cases in 15 years where we wished we hadn't taken the listing. Not a bad average when you consider the thousands upon thousands of opportunities we've brought to our members during those years.As to whether TAXI has contributed to the lowering of payments to musicians.... probably not. I think the downward trend of the "market" would exist with us or without us, and the ball was already rolling downhill long before I launched the company. It's a free market economy, and because the ability to produce great music from a home studio has DRAMATICALLY increased the supply of music, the cost/price has been lowered.In my perfect world, every piece of TV music would be an original score, for which the writer/producer would get paid tons of money, but sadly, the aforementioned ubiquity has wiped those days off the map.It's kind of the same argument that drummers made about drum machines, and string and horn players made about synths and samplers. Those are all things that sadden me (us), but it is what it is... technology has marched on and lowered the bar for entry to the game.All that said, we ARE careful to not put our members in position to be prostituted, but one man's opportunity is another's complaint. I get a lot of mail complaining that we shouldn't run listings for Production Music Libraries at ALL. As our friend Matt Hirt so aptly put it (roughly quoted), "Record deals and cuts with major artists are like the lottery, and doing music for libraries is like building an investment portfolio for the future."While I can understand that every listing won't appeal to every member, the posts above indicate that this one did appeal to some or many, and that's our job, to use our best judgment to run the opps we think will appeal to the most people.Have a great weekend,Michael