Doing a deal with a producer - need advice

[bones]

A london-based producer who has made some records for some fairly well known artists is interested in making a record with my band. There are two issues I am grappling with and would appreciate any advice on:1. costs. he has suggested approx. $ 4,000 per song plus 3 points (3% of wholesale price of CD). he says this is 30% less than he normally would charge. but this is obviously a huge amount of money especially when you consider a 10-12 song album. although i am flattered that this guy is willing to work with me, i certainly can't fork out this kind of money. i will try to get the upfront fee down in exchange for more back end points. any advice on what's reasonable would be appreciated.2. album vs. single. one way to get the overall price down might be to just do one or two songs and see how far we could go with these. seems that the music world is shifting away from physical product anyway, moving towards downloads (mostly singles). so the question is: how important is it to have a full length album? my current goal is to get touring for the band and maybe a good manager.thanks in advance for any thoughts or advice you might have.

[gitarrero]

hi,first of: go to a qualified entertainment laywer if it comes down to negotiation.then just a thought: I don't know the producer and I don't want to speak bad about other people, but if I understand you correctly you simply pay him for doing the record. now that doesn't mean that he "believes" in your band/music - it just CAN mean that he needs the money and don't have another job at the moment.I know a couple of major producers who also work for newcomers if they have the time - of course they charge for it, and their job usually ends when the record is done, so: no promotion, record deal, tour organisation etc. and what do you do with a well produced cd but no promotional machine behind...? it won't sell from itself, no matter how great the music is.I'd suggest to produce one or two of your very best songs, and than go and find a label - rather than produce a whole cd and no label attached.hope that helps.cheers,martin

[bones]

thanks martin, sounds like wise advice

[jensen]

hi bones,I'm from the UK too and have just done a very similar deal with a well known producer from London/Norway and the same with a very well known producer from LA one who often attends the Rally funnily enough.I have to say the difference in my tracks with previous production in lower profile studio's and the new stuff is immense, not to mention the learning curve that I went through while doing it, my new songs have been very well recieved and we are getting some good interest now from 2 major labels.I think that the money spent with a credited producer is well worth the expense because not only do you get a better product, you actually get a further back up when it comes to pitching your songs to the labels, because of course the producer will want to further the progress of the tracks to earn even more money and get more hit credits to his/her name.Martins advice above is good too, get a lawyer to try and negotiate for you, although that in itself will incurr another £1000 on top of an already expensive venture, ents lawyers do actually charge more per hour than a producer, I found that out recently too !!!Or just do 2 tracks at a time, and test the waters.Most producers are willing to do a backend deal if they think you are good enough and have a chance of pushing the door open, but hell they still have a mortgage to pay too while waiting for the royalties to accrue !good luck anyway, are you going to the rally btw ?looking forward to hooking up with fellow brits while its onjensen

[gitarrero]

Quote:hi bones,I'm from the UK too and have just done a very similar deal with a well known producer from London/Norway and the same with a very well known producer from LA one who often attends the Rally funnily enough.I have to say the difference in my tracks with previous production in lower profile studio's and the new stuff is immense, not to mention the learning curve that I went through while doing it, my new songs have been very well recieved and we are getting some good interest now from 2 major labels.I think that the money spent with a credited producer is well worth the expense because not only do you get a better product, you actually get a further back up when it comes to pitching your songs to the labels, because of course the producer will want to further the progress of the tracks to earn even more money and get more hit credits to his/her name.Martins advice above is good too, get a lawyer to try and negotiate for you, although that in itself will incurr another £1000 on top of an already expensive venture, ents lawyers do actually charge more per hour than a producer, I found that out recently too !!!Or just do 2 tracks at a time, and test the waters.Most producers are willing to do a backend deal if they think you are good enough and have a chance of pushing the door open, but hell they still have a mortgage to pay too while waiting for the royalties to accrue !good luck anyway, are you going to the rally btw ?looking forward to hooking up with fellow brits while its onjensenhi jensen,congrats to the interest that 2 major labels are showing in you!I think it's just *VERY* important to keep in mind that the best production can't help to make a mediocre song a great song. so be sure (..and I really mean sure) that your songs are up to the bar before spening thousands of dollars/pounds on great producers etc.I recently heared a production from an italian songwriter. it sounded good (production wise - which was no wonder since it was done with top musicians, a major producer, sterling sound in NY did the mastering etc), BUT I did not hear a single song out of the 10-song album that hit me or that I think has the potential to be a hit.months went by and the last thing I knew from that guy was that he's still searching a major deal.... and having spent LOTS of money for his adventure.I don't want to take away anybodys passion or dreams - it's just good to be honest to yourself and be realistic. too many musicians/bands went broke (and therefore went out of business) before they came into an interesting field. so going on things a little more slowly but with persistance and realism may not sound as fantastic as over-night-breakthrough stories. but it's way more realistic, at least in my experience and in what I've seen along the road.cheers,martin

[bones]

thanks jensen and thanks again martin for your thoughts. it's quite hard to know what to do in these situations. i guess where i'm coming out is to just do a couple songs with this producer and see if that gets me anywhere. it will still be a lot of money but i am really curious what good production could do for my songs and how good production is done, so maybe as you say jensen, you pay partly for an education. i have had a lot of independent professional feedback both inside and outside taxi that the songs are good. but i am 36 years old and certainly not your typical record company artist. so i just can't count on being picked up by a label... i need to plan for a long hard slow build up. that's why i want the touring, and maybe having a couple of well produced tracks might help...anyway thanks again for the advice

[jensen]

I totally agree that even the best producer in the world cant turn a sows ear into a silk purse, what I should have added was that I too had good reaction to my songs both from Taxi reviews and other music forums, before I spent the money.I'm also prone to give a pretty hard and objective critique to my own songs, and tend to mainly be able to sort the wheat from the chaff, in other words . . . . . much as its sometimes not always easy . . . . . .I'm always honest with myself and realistic too.Even though its given me a big buzz to be getting label interest, I'm still realistic to know that I havent quite got there yet, cuz I havent got the hit single, I know it, they know it !! and so do the producers I'm working with, but I'm pretty determined that with some more hard work and determination, in the end, I will get it !On the other hand bones I also believe that a good producer can actually turn a good song into a far better song, even at the cost of a few re-writes or a co-write., and if your producer guy has had success in the past, theres no reason why he cant have it again with your songs,so once again good luck mate, and go for it !!jensen