East West recording

[billykidd]

Okay, I'm looking for some help...I have the East West Gold...m-audio powered pro tools LE 7.3.1....what is the "trick" to recording the individual instruments to make them sound as realistic as possible? I moved up from Garriton to East West and still get the same comment about the "programming" sounding too synthetic...Also, the pro tools manual talks about turning the "local off" so that the playback of the midi track is not coming right back through the Kontakt player (?) Does this make any sense,and if so, how does one turn the "local off"? when I record a track, and then play it back, its coming back to the Kontakt player and I cannot edit the midi track. Help?

[matto]

Billy,I can't help you with the PTools "local off" questions, since I haven't used PTools in a while.As far as making orchestral music sound more organic, there isn't any one trick, there are many techniques.It would be best if you posted up a composition or two that has gotten the "too synthetic" comments, so we can hear what the problem is and give you specific suggestions.There are a lot of people on this board that use Gold and produce broadcast quality music with it, so we should be able to give you some pointers matto

[nickbatzdorf]

Assuming your orchestration skills are impeccable, the most likely answer to your "programming" sounding synthetic is to use as many articulations as possible.Local Off means your keyboard sends MIDI out but doesn't trigger its own built-in sound module. Can you be more specific about not being able to edit the MIDI track? Why can't you edit it?[I really hate the indication that you've edited your post. Let's see if Jimi can turn that off...]

[billykidd]

Nick and Matto,ok...how do I post a composition so you and others could listen to it? Also, Nick, when I have recorded say a midi violin track and then play it back, it is playing back thru the Kontakt player...even if I change the pan or volume on the track it does not effect it; it plays back at whatever the Kontakt player settings are at...you can see in the edit window the pan or volume changes in the track but that's not what gets played back...has to do, apparently, with getting the "local on" to "local off" and I'm lost right there.Any more help is appreciated.Billy Kidd

[matto]

Quote:Nick and Matto,ok...how do I post a composition so you and others could listen to it?Assuming it's on taximusic.com, go to your music page, rightclick the play button of the cue you want to post, select "copy shortcut", then paste (ctrl V) that shortcut into the text here.That is if you're on a PC, don't know about Mac.matto

[twilsbach]

option click on a mac

[billykidd]

http://www.taximusic.com/song.php?song_ ... =1Matto,ok, I've posted "conversations" which was one of the songs submitted. You (or anyone else for that matter) can listen and I look forward to any feedback...billykidd

[mazz]

Hi Bill,I like your composition. Good use of the Conversation motif.I've been doing a lot of MIDI orchestration over the past few years and it's a pretty daunting task to make the instruments, especially strings, sound "real" even with the best of libraries.A few observations on your use of the library:1. The strings sound like they are all played using the same velocity range, which wears on the ears after a while and gives the synthy impression. If you've not done a lot of orchestration it's tempting to try to record and mix with "rock and roll" ears which means pushing things up front. This goes against the idea of the orchestra which in real life is capable of a very wide dynamic range. The sound of your strings is the sound of the players playing near the top of their dynamic range all of the time which you won't hear a live orchestra doing if the orchestrator knows their stuff.2. The strings sound like they are all using one articulation all of the time which again, a "real" orchestra would never do. For instance, you have a two note riff which is long-short. It sounds like you're using the long articulation for both but if you were to move the short note to a different MIDI track and trigger the short articulation it would sound more natural. Of course, the short articulation won't sound correct right off the bat, you'll have to edit the velocity to get it to flow with the long articulation track.3. The use of MIDI controllers, particularly CC11 (expression) to control the swells and decrescendos during phrases and long held notes will make things breathe more and give a more live feel. I suggest listening closely to recordings of orchestral music to hear how the string players shape a phrase dynamically.Be prepared to spend a ton of time tweaking to get things to sound good. Even the best libraries don't work out of the box, it takes a lot of time and patience to get good results.This book was recommended to me at the Road Rally and I think it covers the basics well and also goes in to some very good techniques for orchestration using sample libraries:http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-MIDI-Orc ... sr=8-7Hope this helps.Enjoy the journey and have fun!Mazz

[billykidd]

Mazz,Appreciate the insight...very good...I'll check out that book as well....again, thanks.Billykidd

[matto]

Billykidd,thanks for posting the cue.Some excellent points made by mazz, I concur with all of them.The most basic thing to remember is: If you want your "fake" strings to sound as much like real strings as possible, you need to start with as realistic a string arrangement as possible.Meaning you need to write idiomatically correctly for strings, as opposed to writing/performing keyboard parts while using a string sound.Some of the parts in this composition sound like actual string parts, others, like that high part that comes in at ~30s sound very much like keyboard parts (it gets particularly keyboard-y right around 40s with those keyboard lick runs).So that's gonna be the first thing to pay attention to. Think of a real string section, and how each of the typically 3-5 individual instrument groups within it (violins [possibly 1st and 2nd], violae, celli and perhaps basses) plays it's own linear (and typically monophonic) line.A book or other study course and lots of listenings will help get a better handle on this.Once you have a "real" string arrangement, you need the proper articulation(s) for each group. I would first pick a basic articulation that fits the nature of that group's part the best (e.g if the part is largely legato, pick a QLegato or Butter Legato patch, if it's mostly an agressive short bow part, pick a Marcato or Spiccato or sth like that). Then "perform" that instrument group's part, imparting the necessary phrasing as you play. In the case of a legato part, you'd either use controller 11 to get the dynamics that actual string players would conjure out of their instruments, or use a DXF patch where the modwheel affects bowing intensity (I'm not talking about the attack here when I say "intensity). If you listen to a real string section play, regardless of size, you'll notice just how dynamic the performances are. Compared to that your piece is basically always at the exact same level. There are no dynamics, no ebb and flow, no swells and decrescendi.Once you have the basic performance down you can then load up additional articulations you might need to give the part more realism on different midi channels, and copy any notes that require those over to the respective tracks and finetune them as already explained by mazz. Finetuning is VERY important, I think we all spend a great deal of time tweaking velocities, note lengths and controllers to get the most realistic sounding "performance" possible...So, it's really a 3 step process:1- write idiomatic parts2- perform each part individually imparting the dynamics3- load all necessary additional articulations, then copy/paste (or use keyswitch patches to access several articulations on the same midi channels), then FINETUNE.That's not to say that it HAS to be done exactly like this or in this order, but you'll typically find yourself performing these steps at some point during the composition/production process.I would recommend you spend some time just going thru all of your MANY string articulations you have in Gold, and really get to know each by playing it and figuring out what type of part it would be most suited to. Knowing your palette is essential to being able to pick the right patch for each part.Hope this helps, and best of luck to you!matto