First foray into the forums

[josephdaigle]

This is my first posting in the forums, hopefully, this is the right place...thank you in advance for any help provided...I'm struggling with this issue of MIDI sounding instruments.
I received the following review from a submission:

Hi Joseph you have nice ideas here. However many of your sounds are midi identifiable. It may be in the way you are programming them. It can be very helpful to go into the edit window and work with the attack and decay of the note. At 1:15, when you bring in the horns, there are some harmonic choices that are clashing.

The track is: https://soundcloud.com/josephdaigle/epi ... s-playlist

I'll freely admit I don't have the greatest ears but, for the life of me, I don't know what to tweak to improve the 'midi identifiable' issue. Can anyone provide some clarity?

[ComposerLDG]

Wow Joseph, really nice track!

I think one easy problem with midi instruments is when they are played like a keyboard. For instance, violins don't play chords. Instead, they have players each playing single notes. I like to have a separate track for each stringed instrument, each playing a part. As humans do, they'll play with slightly different articulations of timing, volume, and expression, so I try and play each track with a different feel, the way several people would actually play separate instruments.

Little things like that go a long way in making midi instruments sound believable.

[josephdaigle]

Good point! Thanks, Loren...

[Joseph]

Nice track, Joseph! Good orchestration. What instruments are you using?
The screener already gave you some great advice, try adjusting the attack and release (if only slightly). I don't normally do that for my strings, I usually adjust the expression and since I have Vienna Strings I use velocity cross fade. Try adding swells in the expression to give more movement to the phrases just like real string and wind/brass players would. There is a really helpful TAXI TV episode with Matt Hirt about this exact thing: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DAnFV2avVf0
Another thing that I found helpful is layering different samples (assuming you have multiple) as this can mask some of their imperfections.
I'm not sure if I'm hearing the harmonic clashes at 1:15 like the screener said.
Also, this may be better posted in the Peer to Peer forum. Keep up the good work!

-Joseph

[ComposerLDG]

I didn't hear any harmonic clashes either. Really nice track, I think.

[Kolstad]

I hear the things from the feedback you got too. Not sure if it's just a matter of attack and decay on the patch, though. To my ears it's the way you play the strings, it sounds a bit unnatural to the way a bow would swing through the notes, if it makes sense. To my ears the "midi sound" comes from the way you play the orchestra patch on the keyboard. You may want to play it to an imaginary conductor, if that helps. So, I would rerecord it and then also work with attack/decay, automate dynamics and adjust reverb when mixing it. You'd want to mix it in context, so you can hear when the patch "sit" right with the other elements.

The "clash" may be due to the two counterpoint lines in the horns concludes in an interval that doesn't quite make sense in the musical context, as it's a very harmonic epic cue. The lines ends up in a more "edgy" interval (for lack of better words), than may be called for right there. I hear that interval as a "stranger" to the overall vibe of the piece, so maybe therefore the comment about "clashing". That interval is not clashing in any objective sense of music theory, but it could be considered so when considering the cue in terms of being useful due to maintaining one mood throughout, imo. You may just want those two horn lines end up in an octave.

From a composition standpoint it's a great cue, worth the work, imo.

justsomethingIheard

[andygabrys]

Hi Joseph,

Welcome to the forums!

First thought - its great to hear the screeners thoughts, and it would be more constructive if you would also paste in the entire listing that you submitted to and that the screener returned these thoughts. Often the reference pieces in the listing will give a clue as to what may be missing or what might have to be realized differently.

I listened to your piece, and some of your others (man you have a LOT of orchestral cues in there) and they all sound pretty decent, but perhaps your investigations on this cue might change the way you realize some things.

1) the harmonic clash in the horns. Here is a page from an arranging text (from a jazz arranging text but no matter, the "rules" are applicable in all cases)



So in the section of your cue at 1:15 on, it sounds like there is something (maybe contrabass and maybe tuba - something fairly round in sound) that is playing roots. Then close above that it sounds like there is something else (maybe again one of the above if you played divisi or doubled or maybe its bass trombone played in the softer velocity levels) playing the third of the chord. Without going to a piano, I am willing to bet that the chord roots and the thirds fall below the "low-internal limit" for thirds - giving what you have played a cloudy, muddy sound. OKAY - couldn't help myself. The root is an E on the tonic chord, which means if I am hearing it right, you have a third above those roots that is a fifth or 6th below the conservative low-interval limit.

If you want something playing really low roots, voice your chords in spread position to cover more ground, give more clarity.

like low root - tuba, octave root Bs Bone, octave+fifth above tuba Bone 1 etc.

Another thing to consider is the timbre of the sounds making up those low intervals - If you have two Bass Bones playing at really high velocity level (breath pressure) and they play a third way down low, you will hear it because of the "buzz" of the sounds, and so a low passage might work that way. Softer sounds like Tuba will sound like mud, and if the top voicings of those chords are several octaves up in the Trumpets (e.g.), it will create a muddy foundation as well.

2) MIDI sounding

Covered above by other posters but here my thoughts:

Epic Orchestral in my mind includes more bombast. Brass having some screaming loud velocities where you can hear the "buzz" of the instruments (esp Bass Bone, Trombones in general and certainly French Horns). While its going to sound sampled (and unrealistic) if the brass are playing highest velocities all the time especially on long notes, it helps to give the illusion of power and bombast if you have some sections where they do play at high velocities and you hear the buzz.

Use of Sections: consider what you use Strings, Brass, and Woodwinds for in this kind of cue. Strings are a workhorse. Brass add power. Woodwinds add......color and tend to soften the impact of the previous two sections. In other kinds of orchestral writing they are vital, in EPIC they might not be what you are looking for. At least in the loud sections.

Instrumental programming: Assuming you are doing great writing, and great orchestration, and realizing using libraries that are flexible - meaning they have well recorded and scripted sounds that allow several levels of CC automation, then its really about that CC automation to make it come alive. The main thing is to make everything use a great range of "breath and bow pressure".

listen to these: http://audiobro.com/demos/music/ and especially "Clone Wars Battle (action)" written by Kevin Kiner who scored the Clone Wars series and figured heavily in CSI etc. Listen to the range of softer to harder / buzzier sounds in the strings but especially in the brass, and the growing crescendo in the low brass around 1:05, and the strings leading to the final notes in the brass at 2:02. Note also - no woodwinds (at least to my ear).

If you can replicate that feel, then you are going to go a long way towards hiding the MIDI feeling. Keep in mind also that the LASS demos have been posted there for about 4-5 years since the package debuted and probably don't typify the current bleeding edge of virtual orchestral realizations - which you can educate yourself about by checking out the demos on new sample packages. They are meant to show how fabulous these things can sound in deft hands.

Hope that perspective helps.

[josephdaigle]

Thank you all for some very well-thought-out and insightful suggestions! I'm going to work on it today...

[hummingbird]

Hi Joseph,

Welcome to the forums!

First thought - its great to hear the screeners thoughts, and it would be more constructive if you would also paste in the entire listing that you submitted to and that the screener returned these thoughts. Often the reference pieces in the listing will give a clue as to what may be missing or what might have to be realized differently.

I listened to your piece, and some of your others (man you have a LOT of orchestral cues in there) and they all sound pretty decent, but perhaps your investigations on this cue might change the way you realize some things.

1) the harmonic clash in the horns. Here is a page from an arranging text (from a jazz arranging text but no matter, the "rules" are applicable in all cases)



So in the section of your cue at 1:15 on, it sounds like there is something (maybe contrabass and maybe tuba - something fairly round in sound) that is playing roots. Then close above that it sounds like there is something else (maybe again one of the above if you played divisi or doubled or maybe its bass trombone played in the softer velocity levels) playing the third of the chord. Without going to a piano, I am willing to bet that the chord roots and the thirds fall below the "low-internal limit" for thirds - giving what you have played a cloudy, muddy sound. OKAY - couldn't help myself. The root is an E on the tonic chord, which means if I am hearing it right, you have a third above those roots that is a fifth or 6th below the conservative low-interval limit.

If you want something playing really low roots, voice your chords in spread position to cover more ground, give more clarity.

like low root - tuba, octave root Bs Bone, octave+fifth above tuba Bone 1 etc.

Another thing to consider is the timbre of the sounds making up those low intervals - If you have two Bass Bones playing at really high velocity level (breath pressure) and they play a third way down low, you will hear it because of the "buzz" of the sounds, and so a low passage might work that way. Softer sounds like Tuba will sound like mud, and if the top voicings of those chords are several octaves up in the Trumpets (e.g.), it will create a muddy foundation as well.

2) MIDI sounding

Covered above by other posters but here my thoughts:

Epic Orchestral in my mind includes more bombast. Brass having some screaming loud velocities where you can hear the "buzz" of the instruments (esp Bass Bone, Trombones in general and certainly French Horns). While its going to sound sampled (and unrealistic) if the brass are playing highest velocities all the time especially on long notes, it helps to give the illusion of power and bombast if you have some sections where they do play at high velocities and you hear the buzz.

Use of Sections: consider what you use Strings, Brass, and Woodwinds for in this kind of cue. Strings are a workhorse. Brass add power. Woodwinds add......color and tend to soften the impact of the previous two sections. In other kinds of orchestral writing they are vital, in EPIC they might not be what you are looking for. At least in the loud sections.

Instrumental programming: Assuming you are doing great writing, and great orchestration, and realizing using libraries that are flexible - meaning they have well recorded and scripted sounds that allow several levels of CC automation, then its really about that CC automation to make it come alive. The main thing is to make everything use a great range of "breath and bow pressure".

listen to these: http://audiobro.com/demos/music/ and especially "Clone Wars Battle (action)" written by Kevin Kiner who scored the Clone Wars series and figured heavily in CSI etc. Listen to the range of softer to harder / buzzier sounds in the strings but especially in the brass, and the growing crescendo in the low brass around 1:05, and the strings leading to the final notes in the brass at 2:02. Note also - no woodwinds (at least to my ear).

If you can replicate that feel, then you are going to go a long way towards hiding the MIDI feeling. Keep in mind also that the LASS demos have been posted there for about 4-5 years since the package debuted and probably don't typify the current bleeding edge of virtual orchestral realizations - which you can educate yourself about by checking out the demos on new sample packages. They are meant to show how fabulous these things can sound in deft hands.

Hope that perspective helps.

+1 Andy

I've bookmarked this post.. I often struggle with a muddy low end, this is great advice. Thank you for taking the time to write such a long and involved post.

[VanderBoegh]

To jump off of Andy's amazingly thought-out post, here's a little more...

I think our modern version of "epic orchestra" (at least, NOT in the terms of trailer music) has really been defined by Hans Zimmer. His approach to low brass is landmark. He has big brass sections all playing so loud that the sound is bordering on the dreaded "brassy" sound of horn players. They're right on the edge of loud and nasty. And it sounds tremendous.

Only problem... it's sooooooo hard to emulate that with MIDI samples, no matter how good the sample library is.

I've timestamped this video about the making of the Inception soundtrack. You may find it to be eye-opening: https://youtu.be/W1FIv7rFbv4?t=1m39s

~~Matt