Getting really discouraged about submission returns...

[jmkSlyder]

Hey everybody!

This is my first time going on any of the forums despite my being a taxi member for about one year. I'm finally heeding Michael's advice and going on this forum!

In the past year, I've submitted about 10 different songs to some 30 listings and all have been returned for various reasons. It has been pretty discouraging to say the least and I'm starting to doubt my songwriting skills. My last submission was a song called Rain Dancing which I thought finally met the listing requirements (#150425SB) pretty well. The listing called for a "heartfelt, acoustic singer/songwriter ballad, down to mid tempo, passionate ballad, in the style of Sheeran, Perri, Mayer, etc...." The screener's critique said it was "...a passionate piece but stylistically off target and lacks current radio appeal."

If you could take a listen to Rain Dancing at http://taxi.com/jmkslyder, I'd appreciate any comments you may have...

Thanks!

John Michael Karnatz

[Russell Landwehr]

Hi, John.

Welcome to the forums. You've got some interesting stuff there on your TAXI hosting page.

It would actually be more helpful to post the complete listing text if you are asking for a bit of perspective on your return.

Right off the bat, the three things that stand out for me on why you may have got this return:
1: the guitar is a bit out of tune.
2: there is quite a bit of "background" noise in some places.
3: your vocal style in this song, while "passionate", seems a bit more "forceful" than the referenced artist's more "relaxed" delivery.

You've got some good writing skills as evidenced by the variety there on your TAXI page. Keep it up. You'll break on through.

Regards
Russell Landwehr

[VanderBoegh]

Hey John, like Russell said, it helps to see the entire listing so we can make a better analysis as to what we think. For example, there is a big difference between artist pitches and Film/TV pitches, and that alone will skew how a screener determines the worthiness of your song.

But, outside of the relevancy to the listing, I did hear some of what Ronan Chris Murphy calls "reverb confusion" - meaning the reverb (style or amount) that you applied to the vocal didn't match what you applied to the guitar, which made the two instruments sound like they were being played in different environments.

~~Matt

[jmkSlyder]

Hi Russell and Matt,

Thanks for listening to "Rain Dancing" and for your comments. I appreciate your input and will definitely take your comments to heart. I got Pro Tools 11 a few months ago and am still learning the nuances of mixing, plug ins, etc.

Also thanks, Russell, for your encouragement on my song writing. I really appreciate your positive input. Maybe I should use the Peer to Peer forum before I submit any more new songs to listings. What do you think?

John Michael Karnatz

[funsongs]

Maybe I should use the Peer to Peer forum before I submit any more new songs to listings.
What do you think?
John Michael Karnatz

Why not? ...unless you've more $5 bills than you know what to do with.
Bring 'em on... let's hear wuchyoogot.

[andygabrys]

Maybe I should use the Peer to Peer forum before I submit any more new songs to listings. What do you think?

If you are trying stuff in "new styles" for yourself, or trying to hit the elusive "contemporary / indie vibe" or if you are getting up to speed on new technology, there is no question that using this peer-to-peer forum can help immensely. Most people post kind and constructive comments about tracks that are meant to help you get back on the right road (if you have diverged).

I would suggest you do a couple things:

1) Robin Frederick has written a number of books that are like solid gold for writing songs for Film and TV. http://www.amazon.com/Robin-Frederick/e ... sr=1-2-ent

The books that a lot of people have is "Shortcuts to Film / TV". It explains in plain language with tons of examples (that you can find easily on YouTube) what contemporary songs have in them. This includes vocal melody, vocal rhythm, and lyric content, and then goes on to touch on some production aspects.

Also sign up on her web-page for her newsletter: http://robinfrederick.com

2) Every time you submit to a listing, study the "a la" songs intensely. If you have stuff on the shelf, really consider whether the style of song (including the lyric and the vocal melody not to mention the production) falls in line with those songs. Probably the #1 reason that a lot of people don't make good song pitches is that the songs are not close enough in style (like your screener remarked).

3) Develop your listening skills and have a great idea what "contemporary" production means. IMO - most of the songs on your page (that I previewed) have a "dated" feel to them in the production. Use of a particular type and amount of reverb can instantly put a production in a certain time frame, and most often its really evident on vocals.

4) consider the custom critiques through TAXI. Often $20 really well spent. The more questions you ask - the better. What genre is this? Would it fit with these artists? is the sound contemporary? How is the production? etc.

5) As you mentioned - post the entire listing text and your song on the forum before the listing deadline and try to incorporate the feedback you get. Over time you will hone your skills.

6) Check out the TAXI TV episodes where Michael Laskow talks about "Broadcast Quality" - This is a combination of a solid song / instrumental that has good musical / lyrical ideas close to the desired a la's and a production that is believable. http://www.ustream.tv/channel/music-mar ... ine/videos - look down in the archive, lots of great information on a number of aspects.

Good luck!

[joyfrost]

Hi John! Thanks for coming to the forum! i've been a member for a year as well but am only coming to forum now as well myself. I know how it feels to get discouraged from time to time! My first year I got about 27 returns myself! Luckily I'm getting more forwards now this year so far! I made a list of the critiques from every single one of my submissions and I review them frequently to make sure I apply their advice in my new songs I hope that you're listening to the screeners feedback and trusting it. They are there to guide us to success and will help us get better! I listened to rain dancing and I can totally see why you felt that it was stylistically on target for this pitching judging especially from the style in which you played the guitar. I think the song structure was a little unclear as far as having distinct breaks to really guide the listener from the verse to the chorus etc and so cleaning up the transitions from section to section so the song structure is also similar to the reference artists might help it be more stylistically on target! I also think Russell and Matt made some good observations. You can trust the guys here on the forum to always be kind and encouraging and help you in the right direction

[Paulie]

Hi John,

Best thing you've done is join the forums. Welcome! And don't feel bad about not getting forwarded yet... I've submitted 30 tunes in the past two months since joining and haven't had any forwards yet (although i'm hoping at least a couple from this weeks submissions will make the cut). I recognize that some folks don't have the extra cash do submit so often, I'm blessed to have a solid day gig to fund my passion.

I've been a professional musician for 30+ years, traveled the world, played with or met some of the greatest. And to a man, they have all said "No matter how good you think you are a) there's always room for improvement, and b) there's always someone out there better than you." (hearing that second one coming from Michael Brecker was a bit hard to swallow, I must admit).

I've learned very quickly here that this forum is a goldmine of information. There are so many facets that make up a quality track and I'm still trying to find the right formula. Here's my 60 day assessment:

1. Read the listing description several times. Read it out loud. Find the key words. I have a Word doc I keep on my desktop where I color and highlight the important requirements for each listing.
2. Listen to the audio examples. Usually they match the description, but sometimes you might see/hear conflicting info (e.g. a request for a medium to up tempo but one of the examples is a slow track).
3. Browse the "Forwards" section of the forum and listen to the tracks that made it. Look for styles that you are aiming for, then listen to the forwarded tracks and compare them to your own tracks. Compare the mix, audio quality, levels, EQ, instrumentation, musical execution, etc. Listen to every different instrument, look for errors or glitches (probably won't find any). Listen to them through your headphones and through monitor speakers (not your computer speakers).
4. Definitely submit tracks to the "Peer to Peer" section for advice. The people here are industry pros, been doing this for years, with a collective thousands of forwards and hundreds of placements. This is an amazing friendly community where members proactively seek to help each other out. It's almost the exact opposite of the live musician dog-eat-dog "don't sub for me because you will steal my gig" mentality.
5. Create a Soundcloud account, download the mobile app, then follow as many people as you can that have been successful in the genre(s) you want to pursue.
6. If possible, listen to your music and music of your peers in your car. This is a popular technique that the top engineers in the world use as a mixing sanity check. The car speakers never lie. (I just did this for the first time yesterday and holy cow, it's like an x-ray machine for music).
7. Go through the forums and find every FAQ page you can. Read them. I've printed some of the stuff out and keep it on my desk. Granted, the phpBB search function is not necessarily the greatest, so if you don't find what you are looking for just post your question in the appropriate topic area. Someone here will probably point you to a previous thread with tons of info.
8. Search the forums for specific topics that you are working on, whether it be advice for hardware, software, technique, etc.
9. Get addicted to YouTube training videos. There is a whole world out there full of examples and walkthroughs of everything you can think of, plus a whole lot you probably never thought of.
10. Last, but not least. Do NOT get discouraged! The veterans here regularly refer to the "Five Year Plan" meaning that it's a process that requires work and patience.
11. Bonus Track: Our motto is "Write, Submit, Forget, Repeat." Live the mantra.

Stick around and keep your head up John!

[jmkSlyder]

WOW!! Additional thanks to Peter, Andy, Joy and Paul for taking the time to read my post and offer up some very helpful advice and comments. I really appreciate it! You guys rock!

John Michael Karnatz

[funsongs]

If you could take a listen to Rain Dancing at http://taxi.com/jmkslyder,
I'd appreciate any comments you may have...
Thanks!
John Michael Karnatz

fwiw: listening to this track:
imho you've got a lot of character in your vocals/voice...
I like your tone and clarity; and blended with some top-notch production,
I can certainly envision you getting some forwards for some singer/songwriter listings
(based solely on this one track).
I play using a capo probably more than not; and to me, it aint no sin to use a tuner
with the capo in place. Playing out-of-tune doesn't get much forgiveness or mercy
in most places; certainly not in the world of recorded/broadcast-quality music.