Good orchestral Trumpet sounds?

[rpittelman]

I'm curious to know what some of you guys like to use for Trumpets in an orchestral setting. I currently have East/West Symphonic Orchestra Gold. I've gotten forwards on my orchestral stuff with it but I did just have a screener point out the "poor" trumpet sample that I used in one section.

I would love to get Hollywood Brass and Hollywood strings but that's not in the budget right now.

Just looking to see if there are any other less expensive options here. I'm quite happy with the French Horn sounds in EWSO however

Thanks,
Robbie

[andygabrys]

I know several who dig Cinebrass. I haven't sprung for the Pro extension yet but the standard library is nice. and I also have EWQL gold, and its fairly different in use and sound I think.

http://cinesamples.com/products/cinebrass/

[mazz]

It's possible to wrangle pretty decent trumpet parts out of EWQLSO if you use a combination of the short, legato and slur articulations. The parts have to be written in a way that sounds like they could be executed by a trumpet player and it helps to understand how slurs work because that's a big part of the trumpet sound.

That being said, Cinebrass and Cinebrass pro are excellent but for solo trumpet I have to unequivocally recommend SampleModeling. You have to wrangle the controllers to get the expressiveness out of it, but it sounds really great and can work in any setting from orchestral to pop (just like a real trumpet) when played idiomatically. Most people (myself included) tend to make it too bright in the beginning, but eventually get the hang of how bright to go in an orchestral setting. Listening to a little John Williams usually does the trick!!

Of course, it's still important to know how a trumpet is played in order to write well for it. Find a good trumpet player and have them show you how it works.

Anyway, SampleModeling for sure!!

Here's an orchestra piece I did recently using the SampleModeling trumpets, French Horns and Trombones http://soundcloud.com/john-mazzei-music ... hant-heart

All brass on this including Tuba is SampleModeling (can you tell I love their stuff!?) http://soundcloud.com/john-mazzei-music/after-the-war

[remmet]

Nice work, John!

And for a different perspective on Sample Modeling trumpets, here's a short rendition of Amazing Grace with a muted trumpet.

www.richardemmet.com/Amazing_Grace.mp3

I played this using an Ewi wind instrument controller, and then added some additional controller data in the midi editing process.

Richard

[rpittelman]

Thanks for all of the input guys. Sorry, it took me a few days to have a chance to listen to everything.

John, I like the 2 pieces that you posted from a compositional point but to be honest the trumpets still felt too "synthy" sounding to me. In particular there were a few places with some dynamic swells that didn't feel natural. I know how difficult it is to produce these types of tracks. Anyway, that's my 2 cents on first listening to them

Richard, holy cow! If I didn't know any better I would have thought that was a real trumpet. Does using a wind controller make the difference? Are you a horn player?

For myself, being a guitar player, I am pretty clueless about how the brass instruments are actually played. I took orchestration classes in college but in the early 90's you didn't have a prayer of making a synth orchestra sound like the real thing.

Of course the demos on any of these sites always sound great so its kinda hard to compare from that. The Cinebrass library costs almost the same as Hollywood Brass as would the sample modeling if you bought all the instruments so its really hard to know which would be the better option.

Ultimately John I think that you hit the nail on the head here with needing to understand how a trumpet player would actually play the part. I don't understand slurs and how they use them or how they make them. Like you suggested I probably can get a better sound from my current library if I tweaked it a bit more.

Are any of you guys familiar with Hollybrass? Do you know how it compares to these other 2?

Thanks for the input,
Robbie

[mazz]

Thanks for the listen! Even with these great sounds it's hard to get it just right compared to the real thing, although playing it with a wind controller is a big leg up!

Sample modeling uses individual instruments that you build into sections. Other libraries like Cinebrass, Hollywood brass and east west tend to go for a more "produced" sound and typically a smaller set of articulations. SampleModeling actually combines sampling and modeling to create instruments that are capable of doing anything the real instrument can do.

Either way, knowing how the instrument is played is key. Try doing guitar parts on a keyboard some time!!

[remmet]

Richard, holy cow! If I didn't know any better I would have thought that was a real trumpet. Does using a wind controller make the difference? Are you a horn player?

For myself, being a guitar player, I am pretty clueless about how the brass instruments are actually played. I took orchestration classes in college but in the early 90's you didn't have a prayer of making a synth orchestra sound like the real thing.Robbie

Robbie - I'm not a trumpet player but I used to play one on TV. Sorry, I mean, I used to play flute and tenor sax. I believe the Ewi USB instrument (which I chose largely on Mazz's advice) will let you change the fingering pattern to a number of different instruments to allow you to utilize a familiar layout. A wind controller such as the Ewi definitely makes a huge difference in realism and expressiveness. In fact, it can take some time and practice to gain enough control over the instrument to avoid going overboard with every note. Since I don't have much time to practice, I did a lot of editing after the fact to tame some of the excesses in my performance.

I think the most important thing to do when learning to write for unfamiliar instruments is to listen to as much music as possible that features those instruments. So for brass, the sky's the limit: you've got the entire history of jazz, classical music of all types - Renaissance and Baroque up through Mahler, Wagner, Strauss (the pre-cursers of modern film music), and all that's followed. The more you internalize the sounds and how they relate to and blend with other instruments, the more authentic-sounding your productions are likely to be.

I'm not convinced that Sample Modeling brass instruments are the best ones for orchestra music. They may fit the bill wonderfully, but I haven't heard enough to know if they'd give the other top brass libraries a run for their money. For jazz, no question, they are fantastic.

Richard

[rpittelman]

Either way, knowing how the instrument is played is key. Try doing guitar parts on a keyboard some time!!

That's funny because I was actually going to make a comment about trying to do a guitar part with a keyboard in my last post. Of course I won't need to try and torture myself with that task. Instead I get to try and play every other instrument on keyboard (which I don't play very well)

Robbie - I'm not a trumpet player but I used to play one on TV. Sorry, I mean, I used to play flute and tenor sax. I believe the Ewi USB instrument (which I chose largely on Mazz's advice) will let you change the fingering pattern to a number of different instruments to allow you to utilize a familiar layout.

I'm familiar with a fret board. Do they have that layout?

But seriously, how difficult is it to play and/or learn to play?

I think the most important thing to do when learning to write for unfamiliar instruments is to listen to as much music as possible that features those instruments. So for brass, the sky's the limit: you've got the entire history of jazz, classical music of all types - Renaissance and Baroque up through Mahler, Wagner, Strauss (the pre-cursers of modern film music), and all that's followed. The more you internalize the sounds and how they relate to and blend with other instruments, the more authentic-sounding your productions are likely to be.

I totally agree. I've listened to a ton of classical music over the past 20 years. Personally I love the late romantic period. I'm big Tchaikovsky and Debussy fan. Of course listening to that stuff and than trying to get my samples to sound real is a rather large leap. I have toyed with the idea of trying to orchestrate some of Tchaikovsky's symphonies since I have the scores to numbers 4, 5 & 6 but I've just never gotten around to it. I know it would be a great learning experience.

A few months ago on Peer to Peer I had posted one of my orchestral pieces looking for some feedback. One of the comments that a few people said was that my track was missing that "big lush" bottom end that real orchestral music has. I didn't say this on that thread but I kind of laughed to myself. When you listen to real "classical" orchestral music it doesn't have a big low end by todays standards. Orchestral film music on the other hand has all sorts of added elements which create a huge low end. I found it kind of humorous at the time.

I do listen to some jazz at times but not a ton and even less frequently to trumpet players. I don't really ever try to write in any sort of jazz style however.

I'm not convinced that Sample Modeling brass instruments are the best ones for orchestra music. They may fit the bill wonderfully, but I haven't heard enough to know if they'd give the other top brass libraries a run for their money. For jazz, no question, they are fantastic.

Richard

This is what I was kinda feeling from checking out the websites today

[mazz]

Matt Hirt, another ex trumpet player as I am, uses the SampleModeling instruments for orchestral work all the time, we've discussed it on several occasions. The SM trumpet can most certainly do "legit" work. Most classical players won't "buzz" the instrument as much as a jazz or pop player does. I'm sure one could modify the controller curves to create more of a sweet spot for classical type music that won't take it into that bright buzzy (sometimes even synthy, a real trumpet can go there!) realm. They are very versatile instruments, for orchestral work just don't push them into the higher controller ranges, just turn up the volume instead! Also putting them in the right "space" is key in orchestral stuff. A mellower classical trumpet in the back of the orchestra won't have as many of those high overtones just due to the distance it is from the conductor, although it will "cut" through as I used it in my pieces if played loudly.

It will work.

[remmet]

I'm familiar with a fret board. Do they have that layout?

But seriously, how difficult is it to play and/or learn to play?

Well, once you learn to play, it's not that difficult. But if you haven't played a wind or brass instrument before, it will take some time to learn the fingerings and get comfortable with coordinating mouth, breath, and finger action. But since you're already a musician and presumably can bypass the basics of beginning musicianship, I'd say give it 2 or 3 months to achieve some useable proficiency. [Of course, it's been awhile since I tried to learn an instrument from scratch, so if anyone disagrees with this optimistic assessment, feel free to pipe in (no pun intended).]

Richard