Headphones

[emusic]

I saw someone asking for specific indepth threads on various technical aspects of songwriting. After finding out that no threads in the tech forum (this) was about headphones, I started one.Currently headphones has come to my attention. Alot.I´m often doing pre-mixes on a headset, and my favorite has been my Sony MDR 7506. But it has too much high end presence, and when going into final mix on my monitors (currently Fostex PM-1´s) I find that I have to remix so hard on literally any track, that the pre-mix seems more and more like a waste of time.If I use my AKG K271 headset, the premix comes out much closer, with a lot less work when it´s time to mix on my monitors. The drawback with the AKG K271 though is that they are a real pain to wear more than an hour (for me and for anyone testing them).So I´m looking into replacing both my headsets with two identical new ones. My wishlist for the new ones is:* Good to wear. Possible to wear for long sessions just like the Sony MDR 7506* Neutral sound aka the AKG K271* Not neccesary a "closed" headset, but closed enough that a vocalist can track with a fairly ok volume (some like it loud) and that the bleed from the headset can be gated 100% by a noisegate.So in your opinion - what headset would that be?Hopefully we can make this the "big headset thread".Any feedback and activity appreciated.RegardsEmusic

[mazz]

Well I'll jump in here.I wouldn't rely on headphones for pre-mixing. I know it sounds old-school to say it but headphones (good ones) tend to break a mix apart which is good when you are checking for panning, reverb, and small noises but speakers are still the best check for translation to the real world (even the iPod world), IMO. I would check mixes in progress in headphones for the things I mentioned above.That's not to say one couldn't learn to mix in headphones but it takes a lot of practice and listening on lots of systems to see how the mix translates, pretty much the same as learning your speakers. That's why I wouldn't say: "Headphone X has a lot of highs" because it's all relative (i.e.: compared to what?) and subject to taste, just like speakers.I was using Sony MDR-V900s for years and got used to them. I just got some Ultrasone 650s and am in the process of getting used to those. The Sonys are relatively louder and punchier but the mixes are more spacious on the Ultrasones. This may be due to the drivers in the Ultrasone pointed away from the ear canal. Both are pretty comfortable and are closed systems. I've worn the Sonys for long composing sessions and they are fine. I would recommend taking breaks as the temptation to turn them up after the ears start fatiguing is great and this is not so good for your hearing in the long term.When choosing headphones for studio use (not your personal writing, composing, checking mixes) I always take in to consideration that they will get stepped on and dropped and the cables yanked. Even the most polite, sober, musician will accidentally knock them off the music stand or whatever, sometime. How much of a hit will they take, is the cable easy to repair or can I afford to replace them outright when they get trashed? Given that most overdubbing is done with far from final mixes, it's more important that they be 1. Loud for guitarists and drummers. 2. Closed for mic bleed for vocals and other soft instruments. I don't know of any brands I could recommend for studio use but the Sonys always seem to crop up. I had a pair of Fostex headphones with replaceable cables for years. They just sat right on the ears and sounded fine for tracking, etc. I don't know if they are still available but you see them in a lot of studio photos when they show bands recording.Your over-caffienated colleague,Mazz

[davewalton]

Quote:I wouldn't rely on headphones for pre-mixing. It doesn't work for me either. Especially with issues dealing with the balance of various instruments in the mix. They're good for hearing minutia or for listening to or for music if there's dialog over the music and the music is set way in the background.My primary purpose for headphones is to work without disturbing others. I always try to do the majority of my work over my speakers when everyone is gone and I do 100% of my mixing and "mastering" over my speakers, never on my headphones.FWIW,Dave

[emusic]

Thanks for contributing to the thread.Sure; don't mix final on headset. But I'm often in a situation where I have to work on headset after midnight and making a premix is something I have to do on headset.Seems like Sennheiser 600 or 650 might be my solution.http://www.sennheisernordic.com/nordic/ ... 65Whatever headset one tries to premix on, the downer when jumping to monitors is often huge, as a headset delivers so fantastic pan results and in-your-face sound.

[mazz]

If you must pre-mix with headphones, I suggest you really study what happens in the translation from headphones to speakers so you can say things like: "well the bass sounds light in my headphones but I know that it will sound great when it hits the speakers", and so on.Mazz

[emusic]

Yeah Mazz. But the most neutral sounding set opens up for less guessing. Talked to some preproducers (doing mobile recordings without monitors and delivers a rough mix) that are using both the Sennheiser 600 and the 650 and they seem to agree is the closest they can get to neutral; together with the fact that you can wear it for very long days. One of them told me he forgot to take it off in a 20 min break once But they are very expensive here in Norway. 550 USD for the 600 and around 900 USD for the 650. So I might try to buy them from the net.Edit: found a 650 at 499 USD at sweetwater.http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HD650/

[sgs4u]

Jeffe, GrandMatarkin, Songwriter and Ern all use these headphones. So that must mean I'm gonna get rich quite easily. I wouldn't mind at all if these new headphones give me a British accent, or if they teach me how to orchestrate... My New Headphones too So I bought 'em. Really happy with them. No disco smile EQ like the Sony's. Thank you guys for the reccomendations. It was easier to shop for these than the other ones that Stick and Mazz mentioned, because these were already at my music store.Now unlike many of you, I have been mixing on headphones for years. I don't see what the big deal is. You have to know your listening environment really well. My speakers and my room don't sound as predictable as headphones do. Headphones also help me enjoy the music I make, that much more, as well as being cleaner and more precise. Of course you have to get used to the difference, and more often than not, really dramatic/dynamic mix things in headphones rarely sound as dramatic with speakers. It's like looking in the rear view mirror out your passenger window. Objects appear much further away than they actually are, only the opposite. My mind might be unstable at time, but me ears are quite comfortable mixing with headphones. I do tend to listen a lot quieter than my clients like, but to each his own. Then again, maybe I'll be opening myself up to a crap shoot by admitting I use headphones so much. I ain't scared. Bring it on.

[andreh]

Quote:Now unlike many of you, I have been mixing on headphones for years. I don't see what the big deal is. You have to know your listening environment really well. My speakers and my room don't sound as predictable as headphones do.Hi Steve-I would agree that using headphones is more predictable once you get to know them since your listening environment isn't influencing what you hear (assuming you're using a closed-back model). However, there are things that cannot be checked with headphones; namely, phase issues that occur when the L/R signals meet coming out of regular speakers. Of course, pressing the mono button will reveal these issues as well.Also, most mix rooms have some controlled reflections to better emulate "real world" listening environments, and this positive room interaction will be missing from your perspective of the mix, along with the negative ones, when you mix on headphones.The last issue that comes to my mind (there may be more) is that super-low frequencies (below, say, 50Hz) can be harder to perceive through headphones since we usually "feel" them through our whole body, and that won't happen with 2 tiny drivers flapping around at 30 times a second.But hey, if it's working for ya, then great! Andre

[ernstinen]

I'm a Sennheiser guy, too. When I bought my phones a (long) while ago, I A/B'd the top-of-the-line ones with the next step down. The most expensive ones seemed "hyped" in the high end, so I bought the other ones --- flat as a pool table.That said, I don't mix on phones; like others have mentioned, I just check pans, reverb etc. on them.Ern

[triviul]

I've been using the Sony 7509s for a while now, and tried out the 7506s at the time I was auditioning for my pair. The 7506s and 7509s have quite different sounds, and I'm happy doing quite a lot of the mundane mixing tasks on my 7509s. Even with those, though, you slowly lose perspective the longer you work on any headphones, and you need to switch to a speaker every couple of hours to make sure your balance decisions are holding up.Also, the earcups of the 7509s rest on your head around your ears, rather than on your ears themselves, and I find them pretty comfortable to use. I can certainly use them for three hours at a stretch without any discomfort at all. The downside of them is that they are completely closed-back, which has an impact on the sound compared to some of the Sennheiser open-backed ones, but having A/B'ed the 7509s against the (then) top-of-the-range open-backed Sennheisers, I felt that the difference wasn't huge, and it was a significant advantage to be able to reuse the cans for overdubbing too.