I have decided the best way to give back is this thread

[Ayal]

hi cat herder- thanks for the excellent response! i figured there wasn't *one* answer but it's good to know the range of possibilities. your advice to be patient and focused is spot on, especially the point about focusing on strengths rather than weaknesses. much appreciated!!

enjoying the thread a lot, thanks again for starting it! already a lot of good questions (and answers! )

[kitchensinkmusic]

KSM wrote:
Great...thanks for the offer - I might not actually know enough to ask this question intelligently but any light you can shed here would be appreciated.

I've done one sync license for a supervisor of a TV show and since I don't have a publisher I listed myself as publisher. (The tunes are registered with BMI at 200%). If I should find a publisher is it easy to change the cue sheets or at least re-direct the revenue to a publisher or will a publisher be uninterested in those tunes?

Matto wrote: If you did the sync license yourself you did the job a publisher normally does and therefore why would you want to redirect any of this revenue you yourself generated to a potential future publisher? They should get paid for placements they secure only, not for any that you may have generated in the past or may generate in the future.

KSM wrote: Yes...good point Matto...HOWEVER perhaps my question might be more succinctly worded like this:
assuming a tune might have multiple publishers...how does my PRO deal with this?

[matto]

kitchensinkmusic wrote:
Great...thanks for the offer - I might not actually know enough to ask this question intelligently but any light you can shed here would be appreciated.

I've done one sync license for a supervisor of a TV show and since I don't have a publisher I listed myself as publisher. (The tunes are registered with BMI at 200%). If I should find a publisher is it easy to change the cue sheets or at least re-direct the revenue to a publisher or will a publisher be uninterested in those tunes?

Thanks in advance.

Ksm,

if you did the sync license yourself you did the job a publisher normally does and therefore why would you want to redirect any of this revenue you yourself generated to a potential future publisher? They should get paid for placements they secure only, not for any that you may have generated in the past or may generate in the future

Yes...good point Mazz...HOWEVER perhaps my question might be more succinctly worded like this:

assuming a tune might have multiple publishers...how does my PRO deal with this?

Ksm,

you should use quotations or you posts will become very confusing very quickly.

to answer your question succinctly, I generally advise against having multiple publishers on one song, I advise people to write more songs...

[Cat Herder]

Matt is exactly right Richard. When you place the same cue with multiple publishers you are going against the flow of the current industry trend. If you are dealing with a publisher/library that "pushes" this agenda, run away, don't walk. Matt, Mazz, and many others I know treat every deal as an exclusive (one publisher ) deal whether the library is exclusive or not. It is the sign of a professional. You do not want to get tagged in this business as one who shops their cues to every source you can find. I suspect within the next couple years (if not now) this will be a career killer. JK Rowling has one publisher for each Harry Potter book, follow that example. I hope this Helps

[Cat Herder]

Tracey and Vance,

Here is what I promised:

All music writers are usually conscious of the three main parts of a song or instrumental. They are the Verse, chorus, and bridge. What most composers don’t really understand at first is that stock music written on spec for film and TV is totally different than music you hear on the radio. You are typically wasting your time on traditional song structures.
For simplicity I will refer to the separate parts of a cue as Part A, Part B, and Part C. No specific relevance to what A is, Verse, chorus, or bridge. Each of these are just a part of a piece of music you are writing. In one song, for purposes of this conversation, Part A may be a chorus, another A may be the bridge. It really doesn’t matter. It is just the first part of a cue past the introduction. For our purpose here intros are just assumed to be nameless in film and TV cues. They are important, but are not a repeated part of a cue in the same way they introduce it (If you open with a bridge, Joan Baez “Diamonds and Rust” then the intro is the bridge)
An intro should not usually exceed one, maybe two bars (for film and TV) and is a portion on the front of a cue that begins a build and introduces Part A. That said intros should build tension and the beginning of Part A should release that tension and begin another build. Often an intro is, from its first note an integral component of Part A, but in later iterations of Part A it has already built, and is not as noticeable. If you do this, it is just good writing.
Part A, as I have said, can be either a verse, chorus, or bridge. When designing your cue you might wonder if Part A should be repeated before moving on to Part B. The answer to that question is completely subjective. If your Part A is a bridge, not likely. If is a verse or chorus you have to make a judgment call. If it is too long (:20+) probably not. If it is less than :10, maybe so. Your cue will tell you what to do. What is important is that you need to snag the hook in the first :20 to :30. Part A leads, of course, to part B. If part A does not contain the hook then you can pretty well figure out when you need to enter B, and complete it.
Now what about Part C. Useless, a waste of time in my experience. In all honesty, an editor may be able to handle one change (Part A to B), and, more often than not will not go that far. That said, he may use Part B as a standalone later in the scene, or work. The amount of times you will see all three Parts used is so rare that you are typically wasting your time. Time which can produce another whole cue for every 3 to 4 Part C components you write (Bridges usually have no stand alone value anyway).
My advice is either A_A_B_A_A_B or A_B_A_B will serve you best. I know someone will prove me wrong by saying “I had all three play”, My answer would be “What percentage of the time”
When it comes to Lyrical Songs. The traditional rules apply. All three parts. My Experience.

[Cat Herder]

Does it alwyas have to have some type of counter-melody? Is there a "jam" section? Can you change keys -- like from major to minor and vice versa -- within the same piece? What length (in minutes) should a track usually be?

All libraries will have different demands on cue lengths, we are 3:00 +/- and I am a crazy fool on counterpoint. To me lack of counterpoint, regardless of how subtle, is either lazy, or lack of crafting skill. Changing Tempo, Key, or Mood is the biggest nono. Never do this and you will be better off. Some rhubato can be acceptable but it MUST be subtle, why. As good as your cue is, the editors and director are not going to reshoot a scene to match your cue. If you go from happy to sad and the scene does not do it with the exact same timing they have a choice. Ditch the tape, or ditch the cue, wanna guess which will happen. Maintain the integrety of the cue throughout. Your best chance lies there.

[brandonamatias]

Mr. Cat Herder,

Thank you for spending so much time on this question. This really clears up a lot for me!

Brandon

[Casey H]

Great...thanks for the offer - I might not actually know enough to ask this question intelligently but any light you can shed here would be appreciated.

I've done one sync license for a supervisor of a TV show and since I don't have a publisher I listed myself as publisher. (The tunes are registered with BMI at 200%). If I should find a publisher is it easy to change the cue sheets or at least re-direct the revenue to a publisher or will a publisher be uninterested in those tunes?

Thanks in advance.

Ksm,

if you did the sync license yourself you did the job a publisher normally does and therefore why would you want to redirect any of this revenue you yourself generated to a potential future publisher? They should get paid for placements they secure only, not for any that you may have generated in the past or may generate in the future.

Thanks for all the helpful input Matt and Cat…

I'm still looking for a little clarification on these two scenarios…

1) Similar to what KSM asked about. Let’s say you licensed a track on your own with yourself as the publisher. You then get an offer on exclusive publishing for that track from a publisher. You’ve disclosed the info about the prior usages. If you then assign the publishing under the original title to the new publisher, am I right in assuming that would not have any effect on prior cue sheets meaning the new publisher would not share in PRO revenue on previous placements? That would be win/win I would think. You collect for the deals you made on your own, they collect for ones after they became publisher. (Also, assume for this discussion that writing a new track instead of all of this is not an option for whatever reason).

2) You sign a track exclusively with a publisher. You happen to come across an opportunity for it on your own. My thinking is you would refer the lead to the publisher and have them pitch it or get their permission to pitch it as long as you make it clear who owns the publishing, the contact info, etc. The fact that you found the lead is irrelevant to the fact that they own the publishing and therefore half the revenue—a deal is a deal as to what they own. Any thoughts here? (Again, assume writing a new track is not an option).

Thanks
Casey

[shanegrla]

Hi Cat,
Could you please clarify what you mean by "counterpoint"? As I understand it, counterpoint is where you have two or more completely different melodies going on at the same time, like with Bach fugues. I was under the impression that this was also a big no-no (particularly if they're on the same instrument) -- too busy, confusing, gets in the way of dialogue, etc.

Is that what you mean, or could you be talking about more of just a general building of the part dynamically?

[bassman]

An intro should not usually exceed one, maybe two bars (for film and TV) and is a portion on the front of a cue that begins a build and introduces Part A. That said intros should build tension and the beginning of Part A should release that tension and begin another build. Often an intro is, from its first note an integral component of Part A, but in later iterations of Part A it has already built, and is not as noticeable. If you do this, it is just good writing.

Again thanks Cat Herder for doing this.

Question about intros.
I write electronic music. Some of the libraries I've worked for here in UK have intros often 8-16 bars (often a sort of buildup of part A as you mentioned) Tracks Iam thinking of sound very exiting and frankly quite brilliant and inventive.
Question 1: are there different rules from country to country?
Question 2: Can you get away with longer intros if you can make the intro occur like it's an extension of part A or simply because it sounds great or is the 1-2 bar intro a fixed rule?