Layering (again)

[togrady]

Any ideas for effectively layering piano samples from different libraries to “fatten up” the sound? I’ve read other posts dealing with the difficulty of getting a good piano sound but the Taxi reviewer specifically suggested layering from different libraries. I currently use East-West Gold Steinway piano and I hoped that would be adequate. I thought it was, but the reviewers obviously have more sensitive ears than I have and I’ve listened to some forwarded examples that clearly sound more substantial than mine . When I combine EW with other pianos (less “expensive” ones generally) it doesn’t really seem to help, at least to my ears. But others here have mentioned layering and I was hoping someone could give some more specific ideas about instruments to try.
Reviewers have also singled out acoustical guitar and orchestral strings as sounding thin or unrealistic. The strings are again from East-West, which I thought were supposed to be pretty good. I don’t have any great guitars (perhaps the best is from NI) but then again maybe layering will help if anyone has any specific suggestions. The reviewers appeared to suggest that it was the samples rather than the writing that was the problem.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts anybody might have.
In case anyone’s interested, here are the links for the three submissions in question. The call was for “Emotionally Moving Orchestral Instrumentals.”
https://soundcloud.com/user-817764953/letting-go
https://soundcloud.com/user-817764953/into-the-mist
https://soundcloud.com/user-817764953/almost-home

[lesmac]

I wouldn't discount using reverbs EQ'ed to taste to put them in a pleasing space. Some FX plugins probably have presets for piano etc.
Try googling "effecting piano with plugins" or some such before shelling out on another sample library.

[Len911]

layering is essentially multi-tracking, same note, different samples, probably not as useful as it once was?
from the music you posted, the piano had a backing role and I'm not sure if it would benefit the song if it was fuller? though you could try a compressor.
If you wanted classical style guitar backing tracks, maybe nylon guitar arps or classical guitar samples, maybe audio samples would be a better alternative? they're fairly cheap.
Strings might sound better in ensemble mode rather than solos??

I think it depends a lot on context, and arranging can be different in the real world versus the box.

[andygabrys]

You might consider pasting the actual feedback from each tune into this thread, as well as the whole and complete listing text including the artists / reference tracks that were in the original listing.

Its really subjective when you try and figure out what went wrong with a particular production if you are not trying to compare apples to apples.

The sample libraries that you are using (EW QLSO and Pianos) are "fine" but none of them are "current" or "cutting edge" at this point. There are literally tens of different string sample libraries and the same for every other section of the orchestra. Each of them seem to excel at certain things. Layering them effectively dictates that you need to hear what each one is good for, and make a good guess and use some trial and error to figure out which ones to use as a layer, and mix relative levels and ambiences to make the best end product.

It also has to be really well performed and produced / mixed. There are a lot of CC functions in most plugins that can be automated to give life to static sounding samples.

To my ear, orchestral mockups generally are incredibly well done on the manufacturer's websites. They hire the best out there to use their sample libraries and come up with great, realistic sounding productions in a variety of styles. That is the bar that you have to get close to or beat to get representation and licenses for your pieces.

Case in point - Two Steps from Hell are a big player in trailer music. They are heavily connected with East West (although they use a lot of live recordings and their own custom samples as well). Listen to their albums (iTunes or Youtube) and also the product demos on the East West site.

Opinions - everybody has them and these are mine. At least add to your post with the listing text.

[togrady]

Thanks very much for your comments (and others as well). Yes, I should have posted the complete description. Here it it:

EMOTIONALLY MOVING ORCHESTRAL INSTRUMENTALS are needed by a boutique Music Library with tons of credits in big Feature Films, countless TV Shows, and TV Commercials. They’re looking for Down¬to¬Mid-Tempo Instrumental Cues that would fall within the general stylistic range of the following references the Music Library gave us: Instrumental Reference 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR6HfjBDnK4&t=29s Instrumental Reference 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R1BWgUgyT8&t=18s Please send emotionally moving Instrumentals that use authentic-sounding Orchestral instrumentation to create an introspective and maybe even slightly dramatic feeling. A small orchestral ensemble can easily do the trick for this pitch, as they are NOT looking for anything that’s too grand or overly dynamic. Your performance should have a solid arrangement from start to finish, with some developmental arc. Please avoid anything that sounds stiff, unnatural, or obviously MIDI-driven. They are also NOT looking for any hybrid of sounds, so please stay organic and acoustic. All submissions should be around Two-Minutes long (give or take) with non-faded, buttoned endings. Do NOT copy the referenced examples in any way, shape, or form. Use them only as a general guide for tempo, tone, and overall vibe. Broadcast Quality is needed (great sounding home recordings are fine). This Music Library offers an EXCLUSIVE deal with a cool twist. You’ll keep 50% of all gross income generated by your music, plus you’ll get 100% of the Writer’s share income generated by your PRO. In other words, if the company licenses your music under a blanket deal, you’ll get income. If they license it for a Youtube video, you’ll get income. Not all music libraries pay you for things like that! The Publisher will get 100% of the Publisher’s share. Because this is an Exclusive deal, the music you submit for this pitch cannot already be signed with any other Libraries or Publishers. You must own or control 100% of your Master and Composition rights. Please send as many Instrumental Cues as you’d like, online or per CD. All submissions will be screened on a Yes/No basis – Short critiques only. Submissions must be received no later than 11:59PM (PDT), on Saturday, March 17th, 2018. TAXI #Y180317EO

And the three reviewer comments are:

Nice writing ideas here, but we haven't quite nailed the 'authentic-sounding instrumentation' aspect of this listing. The guitar and piano are both a bit thin and would benefit from layering of samples from different libraries.

Same basic notes as above. The samples you're using are of varying qualities, to the point that even with a little sweetening we could still use a higher degree of realism, in this case mainly from the string section and guitar.

You have some great sounding elements here. The issue is that even with some high quality woodwind sounds that doesn't hide the lackluster piano. That sound is definitely one that would be bolstered by additional layering, then mixed to be a more important part of the track, than back so far in the mix.

I think your point (and the others as well) is well-taken. I'm just going to have to experiment more with different possibilities. I'm not going to have access to all the libraries in the world but I probably have enough if I just figure out how to use them better (and use some of the ideas expressed in the other replies as well).
T. O'Grady

[andygabrys]

.......I don’t have any great guitars (perhaps the best is from NI) but then again maybe layering will help if anyone has any specific suggestions. ......

Something that can help MIDI performances over the bar is to replace as much as possible with live instruments. That is an aspect of "sweetening" that can fool a lot of ears. Guitarists are a dime a dozen and you can collaborate.

There are people who have used MIDI triggered guitar plugins and gotten forwards and even had licenses, but honestly its despite the guitars. Usually they are vocal songs and there is a lot of appeal that allows people to gloss over the use of some MIDI guitars.

As a guitarist - its pretty obvious when there is a virtual guitar. The parts don't sound natural, the touch doesn't sound right, the repetitive parts don't become the instrument and often you find parts that are not playable on real guitars because of real close intervals in the chord voicing.

The parts that the reviewer thought were guitars actually sounded more to me like a harp and a harpsichord. I wouldn't mistake them for guitars.

One other thought about layering:

for a string section, some more expensive string plugins play in "divisi" where there are smaller groups of recorded instruments that have randomization and a separate solo instrument playing along. This sort of replicates a real violin (for example) section where there will be a first chair, and usually an A and B section.

To sweeten strings, you can use MIDI strings for a big section sound and record just one real violin overtop to add some realism. Mix it just audible and that could do a lot for your overall impression.

Or you can use a more expressive solo violin like the Embertone Freidlander as the solo chair. So many ways to make a different impression.

Orchestral stuff isn't my strong suit but the samples you posted sound very different. I would study those and try and make your performance breath more, and try and approximate the mix sound.

[VanderBoegh]

Andy, you're the man! Your knowledge of sample libraries and their functionality always astounds me.

~~Matt