Libraries and Sound Libraries (SOS article)

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Re: Libraries and Sound Libraries (SOS article)

Post by jdhogg » Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:53 am

I bought 1 spectrasonics product and I wont buy one again.

Consider this....it is not lazy to spend hours trawling through loops...you find a great combination of 2 loops that you consider to be unique, this features in a track and part of it ends up on TV....one loop from spectrasonics the other from ueberschall.....spectrasonics can sue you ueberschall wont....

Solution......bye bye spectrasonics.

Songcabinet...who are the companies with the restrictive conditions?

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Re: Libraries and Sound Libraries (SOS article)

Post by guitaroboe » Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:26 am

THIS THREAD IS GETTING GOOD!!!
lets list all the companies with the worst restrictive conditions.
Adonis

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Re: Libraries and Sound Libraries (SOS article)

Post by Kolstad » Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:49 am

guitaroboe wrote:THIS THREAD IS GETTING GOOD!!!
lets list all the companies with the worst restrictive conditions.
Adonis
Im not sure I want to do that. I think some of these licence agreements are problematic, but I don't have all the answers, either.

As a reasonable counter statement, I must say that I DO enjoy these products as well, especially when they make my life easier, so Im not advocating for running these companies out of business at all.

Im just saying that very restrictive licence agreements IS a potential grey zone, and that I think you are right to read the licence agreements carefully, BEFORE BUYING, if you get sample libraries and Vi's with a particular use in mind.

As is, they practically have a licence to sue anybody for laying down a regular four on the floor with a sample library, making composers live in uncertainty and blurring the boundaries between what can be copyrighted and what can't.
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Re: Libraries and Sound Libraries (SOS article)

Post by peter5992 » Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:21 am

thesongcabinet wrote:I think some of these licenses are very problematic from a legal point of view.

I recently got a sample library, (...), the license agreement looked like this:

The samples contained herein are licensed, not sold to you, the individual end user,
by XXXXXXXXX. This non-exclusive, non-transferable license is granted only to the
individual end user who has purchased an unopened, new and lawfully made copy
of this product from a dealer or distributor authorized by XXXXXXX. All samples
remain the property of XXXXXXXXX and are licensed only for use in the creation
of a live or recorded performance that includes the licensed samples as part of a
derivative musical work created by the licensed end user. This license expressly
forbids resale, rental, loan, gift or transfer of these samples in any format or via any
medium, except as part of a derivative musical work. The samples may not be
included, whether unmodified or as part of a derivative work, in any music library or
sample library product. Any unlicensed usage will be prosecuted to the maximum
extent possible under the law.


Let's read closer - how do you interpret this particular phrase:
"The samples may not be included, whether unmodified or as part of a derivative work, in any music library or sample library product."?

As far as I can read this means that, even if I make my own unique loops from these sampled DRUMS!!! I can't license those tracks (even in context of my own composition!) to music libraries!! That's not only restrictive, that's INSANE!
That seems a little odd. What they and most other sample libraries virtual instruments producers are trying to protect is their samples from being copied and resold as a tool for music production - meaning you'd be putting out your own sample libraries or loop collection, using their samples as basis. That is very different from using their samples / instruments in a musical context or composition. Most licensing terms by the major manufacturers (Eastwest, Omnisphere, Native Instruments) are similar in this regard. A good thing to if you are in doubt is to contact them and seek clarification of their licensing terms, giving a specific example. Most companies are pretty flexible if your usage is bona fide.

This is an issue they deal with all the time, by the way. It goes to the core of their business so they have to protect themselves to the extent possible. I agree that it can be very confusing and a potential legal hotbed so you have to make sure you are in the clear on this.

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Re: Libraries and Sound Libraries (SOS article)

Post by matto » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:15 am

First of all, Magne, you are confusing two very different things: songs and sound recordings. In songs, only the lyrics and melody are copyrightable, but in sound recordings, the entire recording is copyrightable which is why you can't use somebody else's track as a basis to your own song without getting permission from the record label and paying them a license fee.
Sampling products are sound recordings and thus copyrightable as such. The copyright holder of those sound recordings licenses them to you for use in your own sound recordings and can therefore set the conditions under which you can use his sound recordings within your own.

Second I don't think Heavyocity's or Spectrasonics' license conditions are a problem, it's quite easy to fulfill them if you know what they are, even when delivering heavily stemmed work (which is the exception in the production music world, btw), and in day to day professional work they are almost "automatically" fulfilled.
E.g I virtually never use a single unmodified drum loop as the entire rhythmic basis of a song or composition.
So even if I have to deliver a drum and bass stem there will normally be at least one element in addition to the main drumloop and bass (e.g. shaker, or tambourine, or a little percussive ear candy, or maybe a second supportive loop - and often many of the above).

Some sample products do have the restriction that their products or portions of them (e.g. construction kits) cannot be used for music library compositions. In some cases this is because the producer of the construction kits who is really the composer of those compositions is also separately marketing them as library music himself.

In the end, all you have to do is read the fine print before you buy the product and decide if it suits your business model. If the fine print is not available to you before the purchase ask for it so you won't suffer the same fate that Magne did.

In my humble opinion, the serious composer will rarely be impacted by these licensing conditions, if anything they encourage us to be creative and put some effort into out music. No client wants "compositions" that are nothing but a couple of widely available and easily recognizable third party loops or licks slapped together in 2 minutes... ;)

However it is extremely important that we as composers and songwriters be aware of these licensing conditions and restrictions, which is why threads like this one are really valuable.

matto

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Re: Libraries and Sound Libraries (SOS article)

Post by jdhogg » Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:43 pm

My gripe is that it is SO simple to have a link on a website that explains in plain english what you can and cant do with a library so everything is upfront and clear.
Some do!
For the rest what is their excuse!
Some maybe have no restrictions in which case they should be a bit more intelligent and state it.
The others with unpalateable restrictions dont do it because it might cost them a sale to tell the truth.

Do you really want to give them your business?

Out of principle I will always try give my $ to the "open and upfront" company. I want them to flourish :)

Matto
you touched on an issue in that some sample/loop libraries are effectively claiming what they produce are compositions and thus want the associated protection........
But they dont sell them as "composition" libraries which is what they should do if they want a credit or exclude all use in any library especially when they know this in one of the main uses of loops.

In the end when choices are available people will vote with their feet. How companies treat their customers does matter.

Just to be clear, I have no gripe when the T&Cs are upfront and clear.

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Re: Libraries and Sound Libraries (SOS article)

Post by cardell » Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:21 pm

Magne, The libraries are not going to flippantly sue anyone because THAT would be the end of their business not someone stealing and reselling their samples. You see, once the word gets around that a certain Sample Library will sue its customers...they won't be around long... :lol:

That's why I was asking if anyone has heard of any actual examples of people getting into strife with this situation. I would be surprised if I heard of even....one.
matto wrote:First of all, Magne, you are confusing two very different things: songs and sound recordings. In songs, only the lyrics and melody are copyrightable, but in sound recordings, the entire recording is copyrightable which is why you can't use somebody else's track as a basis to your own song without getting permission from the record label and paying them a license fee.
Matto, I'm not sure that this is entirely accurate. For example, I could play (not sample) the riff from 'Smoke on the Water' all over my next composition and I would be breaching a copyright. The riff would be neither a lyric, a melody or a sound recording yet it would still be a breach. :)

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Re: Libraries and Sound Libraries (SOS article)

Post by Kolstad » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:36 am

Well, I'd like to keep discussing this on a general level in stead of hanging out particular companies. I got angry with this licence, and the licence was not available, but I SHOULD have asked for the licence agreement before buying. So I discuss this now, because I want to stress how important this really is. You HAVE to do this, and I lost a small amount because I didn't. Worse things have happened.

These products are really convenience tools for musicians, and those are VERY important to have these days, as you have to be able to work at a fast pace. These products helps composers be creative on the fly, I think. My concern is, that when the products stop being convenient, their value decreases, and I believe too restrictive licence agreements decreases the value of these products. But then again, it's a 100$ product, and it's just another example of you get what you pay for. ALL the major companies mentioned in this thread, are in a whole different league, and I think their licence agreements are transparent, and completely understandable.

I agree with Matto that serious composers most likely won't get into trouble with these restrictions. Neither are one finger compositions from rookie composers in demand by clients. Most people in music business take a pride in their trade, and can spot this by a mile, so those things are not really an issue anyway.

But I AM concerned if these licence agreements can eat up basic tools used everyday in music like simple 4/4 grooves. I know enough about company morale to be certain that they WILL do that, if they can. Remember freedom is NOT free!

The main issue I brought up, though, was that this company did NOT provide the licence agreement before purchase, and when I got it, I could NEITHER USE the product for what I intended NOR RETURN it to the company. I do not think this is fair trade, and it should not be this difficult to review a licence agreement, especially when it's this restrictive. This still pisses me off, and I AM going to think twice before buying anything from those guys again! I don't even have the product on my computer anymore, as Im concerned if I forget the restrictions one day, and use it by mistake. I just want my instruments available, you know.. if I get creative. And without worrying about international law while doing it!

SO I want to use my story to support the message in this thread: "... it is extremely important that we as composers and songwriters be aware of these licensing conditions and restrictions, which is why threads like this one are really valuable.".

And I don't think the best way is to expose anyones business - the best way is that you practice this yourselves, because otherwise you might use software in ways you are not authorized to. And that can ruin YOUR business, if you are doing this on a professional level!
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Re: Libraries and Sound Libraries (SOS article)

Post by jdhogg » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:57 pm

:lol: :D :) ;)

I emailed primeloops and brought to their attention the sticking point of them insisting that they are to be credited on any release.

They have as a result of my email now removed this condition and made it optional. They said the condition was a mistake and that was never their intention.

Well done prime loops.!!!!

A shining example to all sample/loop companies!

I also read that T&Cs applied after you buy something are not legal...seems to make sense but have not checked.

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Re: Libraries and Sound Libraries (SOS article)

Post by Kolstad » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:09 pm

Way to go, JD! And well done by the company (better late than never).. I just sit back and pout :D
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