Mixing hybrid tracks, pre-fader VS post-fader reverbs etc?

[denalihighway]

Hey all,

Just thought I'd pick some brains...I've been doing different kind of mixes. Regular mixes I tend to stick to post fader reverbs as normal.

For the small amounts of orchestral stuff I've done a lot of pre-fader reverb, with the usual send to an early reflection reverb aux (near, middle or far etc) and then with all tracks sent through one other reverb to simulate the room. Peoples' approaches seem to vary on this but for organic orchestral it seems like to put the reverb on the stereo bus seems OK in this instance.

But it starts getting complicated with hybrid tracks - for example a track with orchestral elements, guitars perhaps, electronic elements and bass heavy and sub electronic stuff. Like obviously you can't be running subs and similar stuff through the room reverb at the same level as the organic instruments.

I seem to be doing OK with a combination of prefader and postfader reverbs but I'm wondering what approaches to reverb are people normally taking in thee situations? Maybe simply instead of the room reverb on the stereo bus then have a second reverb aux that all tracks are sent to, so that the reverb send can be controlled?

Or do folks dispense of pre-fader sends for tracks like this?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks, hope everybody i well.

Cheers
Gar

[Len911]

Hey Gar!!

Brainworx bx_control V2Control Listening Tool & M/S Matrix
https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/prod ... ol_v2.html

I suggest trying it for 14 days. Experiment with M/S.

I used it first as a listening tool, you can solo the middle, sides, left and right, as I was listening to my favorite mixed cd. What I discovered was that the vocal was panned extreme left, and the right side had almost pure reverb although the track while listening on the whole, had the clearest, sweetest vocal. So I experimented. Dry vocal left, a copy of the vocal track through pure reverb direct and panning extreme right, and adjusting the volumes on both tracks. Of course you can add a delay on the second track, control the freq threshold to mono, panning of the mono, stereo width, etc.

If you've ever wondered how using reverb in the "traditional" way always leaves your vocal or anything either swimming in reverb and unintelligible or too dry sounding and unlike what you hear on records, tweaking around in m/s like the above example will get you far closer to the holy grail imo.

http://www.u-he.com/cms/179-protoverb

If you want to experiment with more natural sounding reverbs, however, you have to save as presets anything you find or you may never get it again.

[denalihighway]

Hey Len

I should have known I'd get some interesting feedback fro your good self as always. Very interesting and I haven't yet dived into M/S properly yet so that's going on my list.

Do you mind telling me what song that was that you're referring to?

Also regarding the pre-fader VS post-fader thing in hybrid productions, do you have thoughts on that?

Many thanks - hope you're keeping well bud? I haven't been around for a while, I should spend more time on these forums.

Bye for now chief
Gar

[Len911]

Do you mind telling me what song that was that you're referring to?

I'm not sure it was a particular song, but it is Aaron Neville "Warm Your Heart" cd. Once upon a time I decided to listen to all my cd's and find the one that I thought had been mixed and mastered the best and would use for a reference. That's the one I chose. Then later I stumbled onto a site that confirmed my bias,lol!
http://www.digido.com/honor-roll.html?o ... ew=article

Warm Your Heart - Aaron Neville
Mastered by Doug Sax. Engineered by George Massenburg. Classic Louisiana Blues with classical blues instrumentation and symphony orchestra. The gentle compression lends to that fat enveloping sound which is very pleasant, punchy, and not over squashed. We can barely equal this incredible sound quality today. An excellent mix to emulate.

I'm not sure I've ever used pre-fader reverb. It seems like you could just make a copy of the track and use the copy for the reverb, and not lose control of the pans and volumes, etc. Sure two copies in phase should make the overall volume louder, but that's what the faders are for, to compensate. Also, with the control of the pans on each track, you have more control of the phasing, something you don't with a pre-fade pan, unless the reverb plugin itself had pan.

But it starts getting complicated with hybrid tracks - for example a track with orchestral elements, guitars perhaps, electronic elements and bass heavy and sub electronic stuff. Like obviously you can't be running subs and similar stuff through the room reverb at the same level as the organic instruments.

This is where a m/s tool like the Brainworx plugin shines. It has a "mono maker" knob. You set the cutoff frequency, where every frequency up to the threshold frequency goes to the middle. And also the middle can be panned, there's a knob for that, and the frequencies above the threshold will go to the sides, which can also be panned, and the stereo width can also be tweaked narrower or wider.

If you want to be a creative tweaker,lol, you can make a copy of a track and put the brainworx on each track, a delay and reverb on the copy track, and tweak the phasing by playing one track against the other by where and what you send to the middle and sides and how the middle and sides are panned on each track.

with the usual send to an early reflection reverb aux (near, middle or far etc)

This sounds sort of like one of those sound stage plugins? I haven't tried them.
http://www.parallax-audio.com/

[mojobone]

Hm. Both approaches are valid, as far as time-based effects are concerned. You generally want compressors before the fader, but reverbs and delays are more of an artistic choice; keep in mind that post-fader, anything you add will 'ride'on that fader; you won't always want the effects to increase in tandem with the level of a given track.

[denalihighway]

Cool thanks guys

About the pre-fader reverb etc and early reflections...a common usage is for orchestral room simulations. I'm no expert but have used it a couple of times and its widely used and very effective seemingly

The idea being you set three reverb aux tracks / buses...for the early reflections - one for near reflections, one for middle, one for far. The send your instrument to the appropriate one to simulate distance in the concert hall from the musicians. Also your fader essentially becomes a dry/wet controller allowing additional 'distance' control so to speak. Then you can put the whole lot through another reverb until (sometimes put on the stereo bus but YMMV) to simulate the room all the instruments are in.

perhaps BX might indulge me with a few $$$ off their M/S plugin