Need some Country feedback

[aubreyz]

Quote:Quote:This might sound biased, but I believe you definitely have to live in certain areas to write the good stuffPlease. And you just happen to live in Nashville. You don't have to live in Switzerland to write a good polka or the south to write "the good stuff," in country.More people in the south listen to country music, that is all there is to your theory. So sure, more southerners write country. Plus Nashville accepts you a lot easier if you are from the south. That is called Regional bias, and Nashville has a lot more of it than LA.I know you are a good gal and was not trying to offend anyone, but with all due respect, I believe you are full of malarky on this.HJ,I think you may have taken her wrong on this point... I don't think it was a Nashville reference, or even a reference to any bias, but rather a statement that there is a lot of southern culture and life perspective one can only really appreciate if you've lived in it for a while. Sure, anyone can master the music from anywhere, but how are you going to know what a Redneck Yacht Club is, and what summer life on the lake is like unless you've been there...Though, I of course have no idea what pass the jar around means Aub

[jchitty]

Quote:Morn AubFirst I want to say I admire your willingness to put things out there for folks to hear and comment on, for better or worse & your good attitude on taking in the feedback. It isn't easy and even though most of us have become pretty thick-skinned, it takes a strong person to do it. Kudos... I listened and here are my thoughts: First, I think the melody has a lot of pretty elements. You mentioned that your goal was to place a song with a country artist. All I can say is WHY WHY WHY? Why would you venture into what is probably the hardest thing when you have so many other good projects going on? I don't hear this as a country song, though I am not very country-music savvy. Why not take it another direction- a more adult oriented thing? I'm trying to think of what the genre name is but my 2nd cuppa joe hasn't kicked in yet. With some tweaks, musically, there is a really good song in there. It IS harder to push a very dark song, so you could brighten it up a bit while keeping it emotional and serious. Some of the other suggestions made on the chord changes might help.An emotional piano ballad a la Elton John (for example) could be a good one to have for a film/TV pitch. I know this is a change in direction, but sometimes it's better to go with where a song takes you.Lyrically, this might be a tough sell in many genres. You don't hear this type of "slice of life" storyline too much in pop music... (e.g. Cats in the Cradle, Circle Game, etc.)... I don't know how committed you are to these lyrics. They are VERY good lyrics, but not very commercial, IMHO.So, if you really want to write it as country, I like Chits' suggestion that you co-write with someone who has country experience. Alternatively, do a re-write with or without a co-writer to target a different genre.All the best! CaseyI think Aub's lucky to have two really good critiquers like you and Matt here....I think Aub really should keep it country though. I can just hear an arrangement in my head with this one, add a fiddle, some steel, and viola, you're there!

[jchitty]

Quote:Quote:This might sound biased, but I believe you definitely have to live in certain areas to write the good stuffPlease. And you just happen to live in Nashville. You don't have to live in Switzerland to write a good polka or the south to write "the good stuff," in country.More people in the south listen to country music, that is all there is to your theory. So sure, more southerners write country. Plus Nashville accepts you a lot easier if you are from the south. That is called Regional bias, and Nashville has a lot more of it than LA.I know you are a good gal and was not trying to offend anyone, but with all due respect, I believe you are full of malarky on this.I hope I don't we don't hijack Aub's thread here, but the debate on this might be a wee bit hard to resist.LOL! I admire your passion here, Horace...and you used my fave word, "malarky.' If you notice when I made my post, I did say that "there are exceptions" to the rule when it comes to writing country. I'll admit though that I've been influenced by certain articles (don't have them now) in the past which supported the theory that people from the South, Southwest and West (forgot them) really do write more authentic country. It's because they live it. I didn't mean it to come off as a regional thing. But I think to write good country, you have to live in a place that is like what country artists write about. My husband is from Boston, and he doesn't like country music. The reason he doesn't like it is because 'he doesn't get it' in his own words. People are the same where ever you go, yes....but I think we are different 'culturally' (in subtle ways anyway) whether we want to admit that or not. Southerners have a certain psyche about them.....they talk a certain way, use different phrasing in their speech, and to write country, you have to be very aware to those subtle nuances of Southern thought and humor. It's like someone like Andrew Dice Clay trying to do "Jeff Foxworthy"....yeah, they can be good and funny in their own ways, but if Andrew tried to do "You Might be A Redneck If" routine, I don't think he could pull it off because they both come from different experiences, regions, etc.That being said, if you listen to CMT enough, and you live in New York and you decide that you really do dig country, you can learn how to write it....would it come naturally to you like it does to a Southern writer of it? I really don't know...maybe.Most of the people I've known on my travels up North really don't want anything to do with country anyway....they openly tell me that country music is stupid and unsophisticated. But oddly enough, that doesn't upset me because they have grown up with personal tastes, cultivated them, and some people just care for it...and then there are many people outside the region who do love country. It just depends on the individual. I've been told that there is not one country radio station in NYC....maybe Case can shed some light on this....so my point here is that if folks from New York want to write country, they at least have to have access to what country is....down here, we're saturated with it.I also don't want to stereotype my region either.....I live in Birmingham....at one time, if you said the word "Birmingham" people gave you their sympathies for living here, hehe. But B'ham is a very cosmopolitan city compared to what it once was....it's shaking off its bad past, and you'd be suprised at how diverse it is here as well.Anyway, I probably did come across as making sweeping generalizations, that wasn't my intention, but I do think there is something to living down South if you're going to write some authentic country.And here's an exception to the rule. Casey wrote "Marry Me" which is a dang good country song....he probably really studied and got a feel for country before he wrote it, seems like Aub is doing the same thing. Maybe a better judgement on my part would be to say "you have to LOVE and UNDERSTAND country to write it, and if you live here, you have Southern culture all around you, so it's much easier to absorb it by osmosis. One reason I write so much country is that it does come naturally to me, afterall, I live in Alabama. But I also write alternative, pop and R&B. These genres don't come as naturally to me...I have to work on them more.

[dgolding]

I think Matto hit the nail on the head, Country is deceptively simple. I listened to the song a couple of times, and it didn't really strike me as Country at all, at this stage. To me, it could easily be a Dylanesque song, with some hammond, slide guitar, etc, a gritty ballad feel. With that said, some BV's, a fiddle or two and a pedal steel could make all the difference. Whatever it ends up as, it needs some meat on the bones to help build, and give some light and shade. Great piano, I'll be looking forward to the next stage.It's not exactly my cuppa tea, but it has an appeal that surely will help it end up as a cracking song. Best of luck with it

[matto]

Quote:I think Aub's lucky to have two really good critiquers like you and Matt here....I think Aub really should keep it country though. I can just hear an arrangement in my head with this one, add a fiddle, some steel, and viola, you're there! Why thank you chits you're too kind And I agree with you...IMHO this lyric really works best in country.However, musically speaking, I think it will take a lot more than adding fiddles and pedal steel to make this sound "country". And I think judging from your previous posts you would agree.One of Nashville publishers biggest pet peeves are people who submit songs that are produced "country" but are NOT country as far as the writing is concerned. They always say: there's a "tone" to country, both lyrically and musically. That "tone" is in the writing, not the production/arrangement. If you don't get that tone right, no amount of fiddles and steel guitars are gonna help you.Sure, there are non-country writers that get cuts in Nashville, such as Diane Warren for example. But even Diane, with her unbelievable track record, had a hard time breaking into Nashville, cause her tone is not country. And many Nashville folks don't like her getting cuts there.Bottom line, for nobodies trying to break in, I think we need to target our songs straight down the middle, make them as (current Nashville) country as they could possibly be. If you target the fringes, your chances at getting somewhere are even slimmer.And while I don't feel you have to live in the south to be able to write the types of songs that could get cut in Nashville (and there are some great examples of folks who don't), if you didn't grow up in that culture you most certainly have to immerse yourself in the music for a considerable amount of time to get a feel for it.Sure this is true for any style of music...but I feel nowhere is it more crucial than in country music.

[jchitty]

Quote:Quote:I think Aub's lucky to have two really good critiquers like you and Matt here....I think Aub really should keep it country though. I can just hear an arrangement in my head with this one, add a fiddle, some steel, and viola, you're there! Why thank you chits you're too kind And I agree with you...IMHO this lyric really works best in country.However, musically speaking, I think it will take a lot more than adding fiddles and pedal steel to make this sound "country". And I think judging from your previous posts you would agree.One of Nashville publishers biggest pet peeves are people who submit songs that are produced "country" but are NOT country as far as the writing is concerned. They always say: there's a "tone" to country, both lyrically and musically. That "tone" is in the writing, not the production/arrangement. If you don't get that tone right, no amount of fiddles and steel guitars are gonna help you.Sure, there are non-country writers that get cuts in Nashville, such as Diane Warren for example. But even Diane, with her unbelievable track record, had a hard time breaking into Nashville, cause her tone is not country. And many Nashville folks don't like her getting cuts there.Bottom line, for nobodies trying to break in, I think we need to target our songs straight down the middle, make them as (current Nashville) country as they could possibly be. If you target the fringes, your chances at getting somewhere are even slimmer.And while I don't feel you have to live in the south to be able to write the types of songs that could get cut in Nashville (and there are some great examples of folks who don't), if you didn't grow up in that culture you most certainly have to immerse yourself in the music for a considerable amount of time to get a feel for it.Sure this is true for any style of music...but I feel nowhere is it more crucial than in country music.Hey, thanks for your comments, Matt. I always appreciate a post from you. I do think that Aub still needs to continue with work on his melody as you pointed out, (can't critique as focused as you guys can, hehe), but honestly, I can hear his song with all the background instruments added to it. But your comments remind me of Jason Blume's, and my feeling is that you really are trying to help Aub here, and it's a good thing he would take heed. In Blume's book, he's maintained that he hears way too many songs which are overproduced. Some of my songs may be overproduced as well. People spend a pile of money, and while it sounds country musically, the lyrics just don't carry it off....they don't have that country tone it needs. You and Hummingbird have urged me to critique my songs before I demo them, and that is just what I've been doing lately. Now, here's the diff with me....I would call my songs authentic country...I am getting remarks from the screeners like, "you obviously know the commercial country market very well, keep writing." Another comment, "has real commercial potential for country market." I've never had a screener tell me that my songs weren't country enough....I get pretty high nods on that. My flaw in songwriting seems to be my 'focus' for my storylines. This is why I liked Aub's lyrics...he actually did something I've been trying to do. Also, I have gotten some 7's on a few of my melodies.....while a 9 on other melodies.....the screener felt that my melody could have been better....don't remember all my exact reviews, but once again, they seem to focus more on my lyrics. I get consistently high marks (well, relatively)....mostly 8's, a few 9's (I've gotten 9's on marketability on two songs) and some 7's sprinkled in. The only time I ever got poor marks was on "Old Lem Jones" but then another reviewer gave it mostly 8's and 9's. But the consistent thing I'm hearing is, "you have to develop this idea more, idea needs more focus".....that is what I'm getting across the board in all my songs. Those high bar listings are maddening, and if you look at the low foward rates, LOL, I'm betting we writers of country comprise the largest part of that group. I have had some screeners say, "I would have fowarded your song, but it is off target for the listing, try Christian, etc."I am going to list my TAXI link....not for anyone to critique, but mainly to let people hear what most people from the Southeast think is 'country.' Casey has told me to get over this, "I don't wanna post my songs in public" thingy.... he convinced me that there is more good to it than bad. So, I'm just gonna leave the link up. (I deleted it the other night) I don't mind criticism in the least...I'm just protective of ideas......I know one poster has said that outside companies can come here and rip off your songs, but I'll take that chance. I trust everyone here, I just get nervous with outside visitors.Now, are my songs good? Some might disagree, calling them commercial crap, but I know I'm almost there because I receive many positive comments and good marks from screeners.....if I can get ahold of my 'focus' issues....developing the story more as some of the screeners want, I might just clear a high bar. I'm learnin', and it seems with each submission, my reviews get better. I agree with your point about 'country being deceptively simple' when it comes to writing it....I truly admire those writers who manage to pull off a song that seems so simple yet is so perfectly crafted.Anyway, here's my link for folks who want to hear 'production wise" what they seem to want in Nashville....it's got all the 'furniture' as you once said. I'm not saying that I'm an authority on country, I just know what it sounds like when I hear it. Also, add to that, Larry Beaird's production services, well, you get the picture.....it's that Nashville thingy I've been harping on, hehe. And also, country 'today' is not what 'country was years ago....and I'm sure that my songs won't be what 'country' is tomorrow. I write a lot of neo-traditional stuff.....you don't hear as much of that as you used to, although it still is flourishing in commercial country.http://www.taximusic.com/hosting/home.php?userid=2572

[arkjack]

Here bee my 2 cents......I agree with I think it was Matto.... not do it as a minor chord song... too depressing.... pick up the tempo substantially, put the chords in a major key and use some of the best stuff in here to build a new song.... you have some great lines to use as concepts that could get you more focused on one theme... Also by making it more upbeat, you can work more humorous aspects like the flip flops and untied shoes.... All that being said, there is another song in there jumping from the concept of passing on = graduation.... along the lines of "When I get Where I'm Going..... and the other comments made here already... more focused story line in one POV .... repetition... both of melody lines and lyric.... signature licks....conversational tone...... As to speaking about the difficulty in writing great country.... I have filled 2 100 page notebooks with "songs" since the end of tax season... probably 70% of them are country.... I haven't yet fallen in love with any one of them.... they're good,...... but I know they ain't good enough....ArkJack

[jchitty]

Quote:Here bee my 2 cents......I agree with I think it was Matto.... not do it as a minor chord song... too depressing.... pick up the tempo substantially, put the chords in a major key and use some of the best stuff in here to build a new song.... you have some great lines to use as concepts that could get you more focused on one theme... Also by making it more upbeat, you can work more humorous aspects like the flip flops and untied shoes.... All that being said, there is another song in there jumping from the concept of passing on = graduation.... along the lines of "When I get Where I'm Going..... and the other comments made here already... more focused story line in one POV .... repetition... both of melody lines and lyric.... signature licks....conversational tone...... As to speaking about the difficulty in writing great country.... I have filled 2 100 page notebooks with "songs" since the end of tax season... probably 70% of them are country.... I haven't yet fallen in love with any one of them.... they're good,...... but I know they ain't good enough....ArkJackI think Aub's storyline was more focused than mine though....sigh, it's all about FOCUS. I predict good things for you and me though, AJ.....next year, we'll be mentoring under Big & Rich! If I can just find those focus pills.

[Casey H]

Quote:And here's an exception to the rule. Casey wrote "Marry Me" which is a dang good country song....he probably really studied and got a feel for country before he wrote itHi ChitsThanks for the nice words on "Marry Me"... Just to give proper credit, the music for "Marry Me" was written by a terrific songwriter named Deb Ferrara www.debferrara.com .... I believe it's her strong musical hook that makes the song. I wrote the lyrics.Actually, neither one of us studied country at all when we wrote the song. We had an artist looking for a country-pop song and we wrote it for her. When we had it produced for demo, we hired a steel guitar player to add some country flavor. Truth is, neither of us knew that much about country!! I love the song and I think it has a killer hook, but I'm not sure myself that it sounds country. That all being said, from a Nashville point of view, the lyrics (that I wrote) don't stand up well. TAXI never forwarded it once for a CO listing and it was always because the lyrics have a few cliche lines and other issues. It WAS recorded by 2 artists including the one we wrote it for... that's something I am proud of... and it earned my my first ASCAP check!!But my friend Chits sure knows country! Casey

[jchitty]

Quote:Quote:And here's an exception to the rule. Casey wrote "Marry Me" which is a dang good country song....he probably really studied and got a feel for country before he wrote itHi ChitsThanks for the nice words on "Marry Me"... Just to give proper credit, the music for "Marry Me" was written by a terrific songwriter named Deb Ferrara www.debferrara.com .... I believe it's her strong musical hook that makes the song. I wrote the lyrics.Actually, neither one of us studied country at all when we wrote the song. We had an artist looking for a country-pop song and we wrote it for her. When we had it produced for demo, we hired a steel guitar player to add some country flavor. Truth is, neither of us knew that much about country!! I love the song and I think it has a killer hook, but I'm not sure myself that it sounds country. That all being said, from a Nashville point of view, the lyrics (that I wrote) don't stand up well. TAXI never forwarded it once for a CO listing and it was always because the lyrics have a few cliche lines and other issues. It WAS recorded by 2 artists including the one we wrote it for... that's something I am proud of... and it earned my my first ASCAP check!!But my friend Chits sure knows country! CaseyI think you're wrong here, Case. I was actually struck with how 'country' Marry Me does sound...and this from a danged Yankee! Seriously, "Marry Me" does have the furniture, it's a good country song to me....ah, TAXI and some those songs that didn't clear the bar but made it on to earn royalty checks for people in other places....now, if Mr. Laskow is reading, I'd much rather clear the bar and earn my royalty check from one of his connections....I seriously want to be in one of his brag ads. BTW, maybe someone Nashville didn't give you a nod on "Marry Me" , but you also have to remember that "I Swear" (one of the biggest country songs ever, and also a crossover hit) was passed on by almost every A&R rep in Nashville.....well, at least, that's what I've heard.