Noticed EZ drummers don't play in time?

[ernstinen]

I've been working with EZDrummer for a few months. It's basically a great thing.

But have you ever torn the Midi tracks apart and looked at them? Or course a REAL drummer doesn't play perfectly in time, but you would think "The BEST drummers in the world" would... They don't.

I'm writing a new piece that is supposed to sound like a ''real" rock band." --- But in a REAL rock band, you have a groove. You anticipate where the drummer rushes and slows down a tad.

Not with these drummers! It takes FOREVER to get a groove on bass and guitar.... Sure, you can separate each track into Midi and quantize it, but isn't that the opposite of what you want?

I feel like I'm back in high school, trying to get a feel for the drummer's oddities... Anyway it's pretty cool (although it takes a LONG time to get it locked in).

Just a thought,

Erm

[Kolstad]

These are ez tools, but often if you leave it at that they are too ez. You could give it more process (break the recording up in more steps), like pick a loop in ez you feel is close, then record a bassline to it. Then open a second instance of the plugin, and record the drum parts yourself, using pads or an e-kit. Then delete the sterile ez midi loop from the first instance. Sometimes you need to re-record the bass track too. But that is one way to get more bounce and variety on record. You can also work with changing the tempo slightly in sections in the daw.

Basically just use the built in loops as a starting point and a temp track, and work on swapping them out with your own parts.

[ernstinen]

These are ez tools, but often if you leave it at that they are too ez. You could give it more process (break the recording up in more steps), like pick a loop in ez you feel is close, then record a bassline to it. Then open a second instance of the plugin, and record the drum parts yourself, using pads or an e-kit. Then delete the sterile ez midi loop from the first instance. Sometimes you need to re-record the bass track too. But that is one way to get more bounce and variety on record. You can also work with changing the tempo slightly in sections in the daw.

Basically just use the built in loops as a starting point and a temp track, and work on swapping them out with your own parts.

Thank you for that response, Kolstad. That makes sense, and I've done that.

I've separated the tracks into individual Midi tracks, but as dumb as I am with this technology, I didn't write down how I 'did it'. ... But I DON'T want to quantize each part, because that defeats the purpose of having a "real drummer." I realize that even the best drummers rush a fill, for example, and then bring it back into the pocket. That creates a natural, positive tension.

As I said, in a REAL rock band you are in a room doing a rhythm track TOGETHER. How many composers have the finances to either own a studio (I used to --- many) or rent a studio. But in those situations, a good band has a "vibe," a telepathic energy that translates through all the musicians. Not so with a program, with a drummer who is not a "Ringo," with perfect time... If I 'like' a section or a fill, it should be in time. And often, they're not. You are PAYING for "The best drummers, on the best drums, using the best microphones in the best studios." And I don't understand how a "best drummer" can't play in time. And I certainly don't want to play bass or guitar parts by 4-bar sections. The "feel" of the track is totally off. I want to play a part all the way through, to a drum track that is in time.

But I digress... I'll work on your suggestions. Many thanks!

Cheers,

Ern

[Kolstad]

Yeah, but you are right. It can never be other than a substitute for the real band collaboration. It's a much more linear process, and not as intuitive, lively and immediate for sure. It's cheaper, but also lonelier. Sometimes more practical, though.

[ernstinen]

Yeah, but you are right. It can never be other than a substitute for the real band collaboration. It's a much more linear process, and not as intuitive, lively and immediate for sure. It's cheaper, but also lonelier. Sometimes more practical, though.

Yes. Good point.

So today, I totally wiped out all the work I had done over the last week. (I've played with click tracks and great drummers for 30+ years. My rhythmic time is right on the money).

I imported the Midi track from EZDrummer, and looked at it. It's all over the place, time-wise! But that's OK. I thought I could work with that.

So I started separating the individual Midi tracks into their own tracks. Pressed PLAY --- Nothing. No sound... I went into the Midi window, and it's all there. It shows up on every different screen, but there's no SOUND! Drives me nuts. I must have something set up wrong, but is it worth it?

I'm a recording engineer as well as a musician and composer. Maybe it's time to sell all this stuff and start a band, record it in real time, and forget this digital crap (like The Beatles did)... Sorry to be so negative, but it's REALLY frustrating.

Thanks for your responses, Kolstad!

Ern

[ernstinen]

OK... I delayed the bass track 20 ms., which was the average behind the beat that the drum track was. Now it locks in! (And no, I didn't delete the previous track!)...

That's a lot better than my EW Gold computer, which has to be pushed 60-80 milliseconds to lock into other tracks.

Lesson learned,

Ern

[Kolstad]

Yeah ern, Im not sure that working digitally in solo is that much easier if you want to achive the same performance quality as a band collaboration on the music. It can definitely require different and extended workflows, and that is something that will develop over time depending on your sound ideals and workflow preferences. The good part is that is it just as creative, though. But a whole lot different.

Keep it up, Ern. You just gotta find a way.

[ernstinen]

Yeah ern, Im not sure that working digitally in solo is that much easier if you want to achive the same performance quality as a band collaboration on the music. It can definitely require different and extended workflows, and that is something that will develop over time depending on your sound ideals and workflow preferences. The good part is that is it just as creative, though. But a whole lot different.

Keep it up, Ern. You just gotta find a way.

"The Beatles" recorded their first album "Introducing The Beatles" in TWELVE (12) hours! That was at least 10 songs.

I'm not saying that's ever happening again. But that shows that a REAL, established, rehearsed band can (could) do that.

I'm sure you know that John Lennon sang his lead vocal on "Twist And Shout" at the end of those 12 hours. His voice was shot, but he said "Let's DO IT!"

That's the kind of attitude we need more these days... And that's EXACTLY why I want to play my tracks in ONE pass, not 4 bars at a time... So I find that the drummer doesn't have perfect time. That wastes MY time, because I know what it's like to play with many drummers who have perfect time... It just astonishes me the "The Best Drummers In The World" don't have perfect time in EZDrummer... Is "Superior Drummer" better? I can't trust ToonTracks. Maybe I'll buy "Superior," but most probably I won't.

Ern

[lesmac]

Maybe I'll buy "Superior," but most probably I won't.

The GUI on "Superior Drummer" is tiny and I hate it. I have sitting on my hard drive but don't use it.

The demos promoted by Toontrack have a huge interface that takes up the whole of the display real estate.

I haven't looked but you might be able to buy midi packs that you can use with EZ drummer that have tight timing.

[Len911]

You maybe should try Jamstix? http://www.rayzoon.com/index.html https://youtu.be/foVpK3LeJOk


There are built-in kits, or you can use ez drummer, with it with midi out. basically, you choose a style and drummer, add sections of your song, and you can also adjust drumming parameters or draw your own in. they call it a virtual drummer. It's like you are creating your own drum midi, and you can even use midi drum files and alter them. I think one of the ai drummers may even be called Ringo,lol!