Orchestra sample question

[wedge]

I am looking at getting better orchestra samples. I gather from the last ustream broadcast with David Trotter that the samples I have aren't likely to be good enough for placement purposes. I've been using Sampletank and Garritan Personal Orchestra. Based on what I can currently afford, I am looking at either East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra Gold Complete bundle or Vienna Symphonic Library Special Edition . Does anyone have any experience with either of these? Pros? Cons? Anything?
Should I be looking at something entirely different?
I'm shopping in the $400 - $500 range.
Any advice, etc. would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Wade

[mazz]

I think you'll find that a lot of folks here on the forum use EWQL Gold orchestra and those that really know how to use it well have had deals and placements with pieces created with that library. There are also some that use Vienna and have had success with that as well.

Here's my take on the difference:

EW has the hall ambience sampled in. In their Player "Play", you can reduce the level of the ambience (the "release tails" in EW-speak) and I believe you can even turn it off altogether. The up side of the EW approach is that you don't need a good reverb because the reverb is essentially "baked" into the instruments. On the other hand, every release tail is a "voice", which means your computer has to process them. So for every sample you trigger, you are really triggering two samples. That coupled with the fact that their Play engine demands a fairly strong computer, and you may need to budget for a better machine if you want to write large bombastic cues with lots of voices. You can certainly get deals without writing big complex pieces, and the simpler the better a lot of times is the way to go with production music anyway.

Vienna: I don't have the entire collection, I have a few instruments that I've downloaded from them individually (Epic Horns and Fanfare Trumpets). Vienna samples their instruments in a pretty dry environment which pretty much requires you to have a good convolution reverb in addition to your orchestral library. These reverbs, of course, take up CPU space on your computer so the same caveat applies as with EW: do you have enough computer to run all the voices and reverbs, etc. to realize your musical visions? I've also not been enamored of the Vienna interface and the way they make you work, but to be honest, I haven't dug deeply enough into it to really become smooth with it. It's like anything, it takes time to learn the interface to get efficient with it.

I don't think you could go wrong with either collection, but with the Vienna you may have to add the price of a good convolution reverb if you don't already have one on your system.

HTH,

Mazz

[kevinmathie]

Personally, I'd stay away from Garritan. I purchased that library very early on, and was quite disappointed with it. It's probably great to composing with, and getting a general idea of what your orchestrations will sound like (i.e., when composing with Finale), but I don't think Garritan would cut it for broadcast quality. Especially with all these libraries like LASS and Hollywood Strings upping the ante all the time.

So, +1 vote for EW Gold or Vienna Symphonic Library.

[macaudio]

I think you'll find that a lot of folks here on the forum use EWQL Gold orchestra and those that really know how to use it well have had deals and placements with pieces created with that library.... EW has the hall ambience sampled in. In their Player "Play"...

I have the EWQL Gold, the one prior to the Play edition. Would that also be acceptable/recommended, or has the new Play edition trumped that? I had read posts saying it was actually more flexible than the newer Play. Thanks.

[dannydep]

I'm in the same boat as Wade.
One big reason why I hesitate to rejoin TAXI, at the moment.

I too, watched the ustream last night and was hoping for more specific input regarding a recommendation of some kind,
be it a brand name or specific attributes, e.g. 32-bit. etc.


Could I ask the folks that are using EW or Vienna to tell us what there PC setups consist of in regards to processing power and memory,
as well as any other attributes that might effect performance.
For instance, i do have a separate HD for my samples that runs at 7200 rpm's, which I assume is a requirement to better performance as well.

Thx in advance.

[mazz]

There's so many factors involved in this decision. I suggest you go to the respective websites of Vienna and EW and look at their minimum computer requirements. And bear in mind that the type of music you want to compose will be a factor. If you want to do big orchestral productions with lots of fast runs and voices all over the place, then you might have to resort to bouncing some sections to audio while you work on other sections if your computer is near the minimum requirements. If you are doing simpler, sparser compositions, then you can probably get by with a less full powered machine.

It's also based on how many articulations you have loaded at a time. EW, for instance, has what they call "master keyswitches" for each voice of it's respective instrument choir (1st vlns, 2nd vlns, 3 trumpets, solo clarinet, etc.). Each one of those keyswitch programs has several articulations loaded that are chosen by hitting a key on your keyboard below and/or above the range of the instrument. If your piece only needs legato and pizzicato strings, then there's no reason to load up all the other articulations, which will save you RAM and CPU. Composing for orchestra takes a fair amount of planning ahead, or, if really want all the articulations loaded at once, then you'll need a massive 64 bit computer or several slaves. Of course, that raises the price tag, etc. And even the keyswitches don't contain all the available articulations. For instance, they don't typically contain patches called Dynamic Cross Fade (DXF) patches. These patches allow for customized crescendos and decrescendos, which gives greater flexibility over the "canned" crescendos loaded with the keyswitches. With any of these good libraries, there's several different paths to get the end result. And the steep learning curve that comes with all those possibilities, BTW!!

If at all possible, 64 bit is the way to go, as long as everything in your system can either run at 64 bit or co-exist with 64 bit if it's still a 32 bit application. That's a whole other can of worms there, but suffice it to say that 64 bit and as much ram as you can afford is really an optimal situation for efficient composition while having lots of articulation choices at your fingertips.

Our friend matto until recently had a fairly aged PC and he wrote many great sounding orchestral pieces for trailers, TV shows, etc. using that a EW Gold. Matto is an expert composer who knows his tools well and also knows how to compose efficient pieces both in their usage of his systems and how effective they are at generating placements for him. So ultimately, if you have a good library like either Vienna or EW Gold, it comes down to how you use it, because there's lots of people out there with the same tools, and they are more or less effective at using them. My signature line/mantra pretty much sums that up (in green text below).

Good luck!

Mazz

[kurtkreimier]

Wade,

First off I want to say that I do not do full blown orchestral work but do use orchestral samples from time to time in much of my work, mostly solo strings, woodwinds and small ensembles. A few years back I was in the same boat as you with Sampletank and EWQLSO Silver as my only available orchestral samples. At the time I needed to make an improvement so I went out and upgraded to the EWQLSO Gold Bundle and I also purchased the Vienna Special Edition around the same time.

I can only say that I ultimately wound up using the EWQLSO Gold Bundle much more often than the Vienna. I'm with Mazz in that I don't care for the Vienna interface too much and I just found the EWQLSO much easier to work with, perhaps because I was a little more familiar with their interface from using the Silver package. BTW I would not waste my time with the EWQLSO Silver but would go straight to Gold or Platinum. I eventually upgraded to the Play version of the EWQLSO but I still find myself going back to the original Gold Bundle and running the samples in my Kontakt 4 player. Only lately have I been really forcing myself to start utilizing and learning the Play engine.

If I was forced to chose between one or the other (EWQLSO or Vienna Special Edition) I would go with the EWQLSO Gold or Platinum. But that is me and my needs. There are many other people on this thread who are making some very valid points and you need to take all of them into consideration. BTW my DAW is probably a little behind the curve compared to others here. I run Cakewalk Sonar PE 8.5 on a quad core PC, Windows XP 32 bit with 4 Gig of Ram and this machine still works very well for me.

Hope this helps.

[wedge]

Mazz,
Thank you for a fantastic reply and education!
I hope it's is as helpful to others as it is to me.
I use Cuebase 5 and plenty of plugins and haven't had any problems with processor overload.
I'm running WinXP sp3 with max ram (3 gig is all XP sees) and a 2.66 gig core 2 quad CPU.
GPO was good for a starter / educational program and I did learn alot about MIDI and controllers from playing with it, but I'll never know enough.....
As far as sample selection, I guess I'm going with East West. My only fear, like with all software, is that it will be obsolete by the time I install it, but i'm ready for the upgrade to a good sample base and it seems that's a sound investment. I was also waiting for a bit more info in the broadcast, but i'm guessing they can't randomly plug products. Thanks again for some great information. The level of help you get here from those who have been down the road is amazing, as you've proven, and very much appreciated.
Best regards,
Wade

[wedge]

Thanks Kurt,
Thats similar to what I'm running and confirms both what Mazz said and what I believe will satisify my needs. I won't be doing a 50 piece orchestra arrangement, but will definitly be adding strings and / or horns to a piece. Quality is what I'm shooting for here, and need it to sound as real as possible. Thanks again to everyone for some great feedback!
Regards,
Wade

[mazz]

As far as obsolescence goes, East West is pretty committed to developing products and upgrading their existing ones. IMO, you need to worry more about your bank balance and credit rating once you start on this gear-head path!!

Good luck and have fun!!

Mazz