Orchestral Question #2: Your Educational Backgroun

[bigbluebarry]

As I'm beginning to take the steps toward learning how to write orchestral music, I'm thinking of several different questions to ask all of my orchestral writing friends. I've already asked a couple in a previous thread that can be found here - http://taxi.proboards27.com/index.cgi?b ... d=11397But now I've got a different question for you. I was wondering what type of educational background you have in music? Did you go to college and get a Music Degree? Were you self-taught? What did you do to get to the skill set that you currently have?I'll start... I played the baritone in 6th and 7th grade. I wanted to play drums but we had too many drummers already. When I got to the 8th grade, I realized that I had no more desire to play baritone. I wanted to be a drummer. I started "practicing" at church by watching the drummer play and trying to imitate what he was playing while sitting in the pew. After doing this for 3 years, my dad was able to buy me a kit (August 8, 1991) and that's when I started practicing for real. In 1993, I started playing drums for the jazz and pep bands at my college. Later that year I began to learn guitar. Other than my initial learning experience in middle school, I haven't had any formal training, either in application or theory. I just picked up a book called "Music Theory for Computer Musicians" and so far I'm loving it.http://www.amazon.com/Music-Theory-Comp ... 98635034My buddy Joel (who you've heard sing on some of our tunes "Everybody," "Our Place," "Hey Hey") has a degree in Music Theory. I could tell from the brief conversation we had the other night about my foray into orchestral music, he's excited about it, if for no other reason, he'll have someone to talk to about theory now! lolSo, I guess I'm just curious to see what kind of learning curve I should expect when it comes to orchestral composing. I know it's gonna be different for each individual but I thought it would be an interesting topic nonetheless. Thanks,- Big Blue

[davewalton]

Educational background? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.......... That would be "none". Once I got EWQL "Gold" and saw all the articulations, I called in a friend who teaches orchestra at our local high school. He sat with me for an evening as we pulled up various articulations, he told me what they were, when they were used, how they were played, etc. It gave me a pretty good foundation to at least have half a chance to use things appropriately.One thing that's made a difference (for me at least). I stopped paying attention to how what I was doing might look to a professional orchestrator. If it sounds good, I go with it. Doesn't matter if I layered the first violins on top of themselves three times over, if I'm getting a sound, a feel that I like, that's what matters.Also, write for emotion... don't worry about what another "orchestra" guy/gal might think musically. A simple "sad" piece is much more usable than a brilliantly written piece that's hard to put a finger on emotionally. Once I started to write for the emotion rather than for the applause of other composers, my music started getting used more. I still struggle with that BTW... but I try to keep it in mind as much as possible.

[mazz]

Hey BB,I started singing at a very young age and then took up trumpet at around 10 and piano not long after that. I learned to read music around the same time. I started exploring music theory in junior high school and devoured as many classical and jazz theory books as I could throughout high school. By the time I got to community college, I was pretty well versed in theory. I did some composing and a lot of improvising during this time.After 2 years in community college, I graduated to the Holiday Inn School of music, where I spent the next 8 years or so playing covers up and down the west coast. I continued to study music on my own and spent a ton of time listening to all types of music, including the top 40 hits of the day that I had to learn for the band.When I got off the road, I had a small studio in a small town in southern Oregon and also played church gigs, accompanied cabaret singers, played jazz 3 nights a week and did a lot of casuals. I had a piano and spent many hours sight reading classical music and improvising. I composed a lot of ambient music during that time as well. I traveled with a New Age publishing company and the main author and also did the music for all of her events and recordings (accompanying her speaking). This was all improvised, which gave me great experience following emotions and creating different textures on the spot, kind of like instant film scoring.After I moved to SF, I continued to gig some with my wife, playing jazz standards at weddings. Soon I felt I had exhausted my knowledge of music and I was looking for a deeper understanding of the way music worked. I contacted a well known composition teacher, W.A. Mathieu, after hearing his name more than once in my life and being told that he was a true guru of music. He took me on as a student and I studied with him regularly for 7 years. We still get together occasionally and have become good friends. Studying with him is like seeing the true inner workings of music and how it is constructed from the vibrational level on up to how harmonies are constructed and beyond. He truly changed my life and my music. I now feel like I can call myself a composer rather than just a poser. Of course, it's a lifelong journey that never ends and by no means am I where I want to be, but I feel like I have a certain command of the language of music that I never had before.Music theory is the study of music after it has happened. Music theory is meant to inform and enlighten music, not dictate how it should be composed. Many people think they need music theory to be able to effectively write orchestral music. I think that knowing theory certainly can help a composer make musical decisions that another composer might only get to by trial and error, but the point is to transcend the theory. Just like a great player transcends their technique, a composer must transcend their theoretical knowledge, whatever the extent of that is.You are a natural musician and your ear is well developed. I have no doubt that you can learn to do this by listening and that you will absorb the theory as you go along. Let the theory shed light on what you already do, don't let yourself be encumbered by it.Take care,Mazz

[bigbluebarry]

Dave... once again, thanks for your comments. I think I may have a friend that teaches orchestra, or at least a friend of a friend that does. I think I may be giving them a phone call I especially like the idea of writing for "emotion." I try to do that on guitar but it's not always easy to do. Especially when trying to match a certain "a la" reference. But I'm definitely gonna keep that in mind as I start this new adventure.Mazz... THANK YOU 1) for your comments there at the end. That really means a lot to me coming from you. I hold you (and Dave as well as a few others) in high regards regarding your musical gifts and abilities, and 2) for taking the time to go that in depth. I also really appreciate your advice about theory. I think, inside, there's a part of me that feels an "obligation" to learn theory. Or maybe a better description would be, I kinda feel I need to learn it somewhat to kind of "pay my dues." I think that just goes back to how I'm wired. I have a feeling that as I start to learn theory, I'm going to have quite a few "AHA!!!! So THAT'S why that works like that!" moments as it relates to guitar and chord progressions. I think I'm going to try and find a balance between the theory and the actual application as well. This is gonna be a fun ride, I just know it. And I'm glad to have people there to help me out along the way. Thanks again!-Big Blue

[crs7string]

Blue,I think one of the more important aspects of music theory as it relates to writing "lines", whether it be for orchestra or a big band is voice leading.Every line needs to "sing" and as much as possible be a logical melody. As a guitar player you already do this if you are smoothly connecting one chord to another.(Obviously I'm not talking about just playing bar chords and moving up and down the guitar neck. That is voice leading, but only guitar players think this way)Fortunately, there are all kinds of great material available for theory and orchestration. If you go to Amazon and input either subject a wealth of material will show up.If this is something you are serious about learning, building a library of these books can be extremely valuable. The same idea applies to listening as well.Regarding your keyboard skills, this skill set will develop over time and does not necessarily need to become "performance ready" just functional. ChuckBTW How have we not thought of the idea of getting together, you're just down the road.

[bigbluebarry]

I have no idea why we haven't thought about that. Let's set something up for sometime this month if possible. Ok?- Big Blue

[tedsingingfox]

Jan 5, 2009, 7:22pm, crs7string wrote:ChuckBTW How have we not thought of the idea of getting together, you're just down the road.Good Lord, that seems like such a natural fit, I don't even want to THINK about why this hasn't occurred to either of you before this moment. Big Blue, my friend... not that anything I might say here should hold ANY weight, whatsoever... BUT...I took three years of piano lessons, starting when I was 8. (Great interest...lousy teacher.) And one more year, when I was 13. (GREAT teacher, lousy interest.)Other than that, I am totally dependent on my ear and my interest in learning/growing, and my willingness to make a fool of myself in the meantime.Granted, I would NEVER claim to be an Orchestral Composer, but I've signed deals for SO many differring styles of music (Flamenco guitar...Baroque piano & strings & woodwinds...hard-core traditional BlueGrass...and A Capella DooWop among them), I didn't think my $.02 worth would really ruin your day.<hhh>Ted

[indianriverstudio]

Thought I would jump into this one - or off of the cliff - on this one... I actually have symphony experience - as a performer in the US and overseas as a french hornist. I have a degree in music performance for piano and horn... I know plenty of folks who have no degree, but who write as though they should teach the teacher. I know those with degrees out the ears that should find another vocation. So - it's about heart, soul, and the ability to improvise with a different set of tonal input. I have written for orchestras, choir, etc... and - no matter how many you write, each one is like birthing a child. Not that I would know that!! I think the best thing to learn is the instrument ranges, and which orchestrations sound best. Which style of music you are going after. I remember playing for Jerry Goldsmith, and he had the most amazing ability to orchestrate anything. Could have made a lawnmower and weed-eater sound great. Thinking of pieces like Bolero - which are really study pieces in orchestration - how Ravel intended for the instruments to sound like stops on an organ. Pretty neat... Just my 2.5 cents....Mark

[allends]

FWIW: I'm bookmarking this thread because you guys are awesome! The Truth jumps off the page!It so happens, Big Blue, that I'm slogging my way through an orchestral piece right now so this subject is a good one for me. BTW: I think it was Dave Dubya , in another thread, who recommended doing a short copy-cat project as a learning experience. Now there's an instant education for you! Thanks,Allen

[bigbluebarry]

Ted... thanks for sharing. The info that's been shared in this thread, as well as the other orchestral thread I started, has been priceless. It's been very helpful to me and will probably continue to be so for a long time.Mark... First off, welcome to the forums and thanks for taking the time to post on this thread. As far as to which style of music I'm going after... I must say that I don't think I've researched enough to truly give an answer but I think I would probably lean more towards modern composers. I know that I LOVE John Williams' work. I also love Howard Shore's work. I think I'd like to take some of the elements from those two guys as well as a few others and then combine that with the type of stuff that I typically write to see what I can come up with. On one of my "extreme sports" critiques (Blinsided - http://www.taximusic.com/song.php?song_ ... tream=true) the screener said that they would love to hear some orchestration on the track. Being completely honest, as much as I've listened to it, I haven't been able to "hear" that yet. But I'm hoping in a few months I will be able to.Because of being in TAXI for over a year now, I realize that I'll still need to write for the listings. But I wanna be like Mazz (not trying to brown-nose, being completely sincere here) and take my appreciation for the work of others but throw my own little flavor in there too. Allen.. thanks for chiming in. That's some great advice there too! Thank you (and Dave Dubya) - Big Blue