pan left, pan right, what the heck???

[heinsite]

hey all--i've been VERY SLOWLY learning all this stuff on my boss 1600--as its the only tool i have (wait, scratch that, i'm not THAT old...) and have actually been learning much on my own, trusting my ears, and going back and remixing stuff--panning is a very common thing me thinks, and can bring out clarity, just like EQok paul, and just play with it until it sounds balanced and you can hear all the stuff you want, i've also been going into my compression and pressing "edit" and upping my decibals on the tracks i want to bring out, then going back (or in reverse sometimes...) and adjusting the upper, middle, and low end eq levels. paul, you're retired damn it, just play with yourself and when it sounds good, it usually is ok. now ALL THAT SAID, i'm still learning on my boss, and you guys mostly have VERY GOOD computer (as in your computer) stuff like protools, traction and stuff i just learned about in the last few days.HEY AUB up there, i didn't read it all, BUT I WILL--i've just discovered some of it, it hell, what a difference...all the best, now paul, GO PLAY and come back with a sample on peer to peer. and please, double that bridge for me, if you love me!!the best,warren

[heinsite]

paul,just read billg's remark, check it out, as aub said, my lead vocal is always (almost) dead center, but my rythm guitar say 20% left, my drum machine crap, 20% to the right, my midi bass (or real bass) a % sometimes either side, just don't let it muddy the whole thing, or sometimes right in the center, but turned down quite a bit to "hide" it--the stones i understand used to hide the bass allot...anyway, just trust your ears, hell, i'm damnded near hunchback because of it, and my stuff STILL IS SO DAMNED BAD--but i keep trying. i should be so lucky to sound like billg or mark, who are my unofficial heroes in still and production (don't tell anybody...) THAT's why i'm demo'ing out too damn much of even my simplest stuff, but i'm getting better....the best,warren

[aubreyz]

Jul 18, 2008, 11:07am, feaker wrote:AubPlease tell me you had that on file and just pasted it. Nope. Was having a double quarter pounder from McDangers and felt like I needed to pay it forward a bit to make up for my indulgence Quote:Man that is a lot of information.I have everything printed out now to put by my lazyboy for evening study sessions.Yours will be in the "advanced" section. Don't worry about understanding it all. Just saturate yourself with information. It's like learning a new language-- pretty soon all the mystery words will start making sense.Quote:Will have to look up things like "roll off" A quick google of EQ roll off and this was the 2nd match. Good stuff:http://www.practicalpc.co.uk/computing/ ... e:Tomorrow I am going to take the plunge and try implementing some of these tricks.Might have to use the ole "undo" command. Can't get into too much trouble. Brain is starting to go ito "overload" now.Thank you for all of your timePaulI want to just say this, IMHO this whole game is not so much about HOW to do something as it is knowing WHAT you want to do. That may not make sense, so here's a real world example. My 19 year old son has been playing and writing since he was about 12. The last couple of years he wanted to get into recording and we got him a small Pro Tools setup. I taught him the basics and then just pretty much let him experiment. I tried to teach him not "how to do this" but rather how to learn how. Essentially there are not that many basic principles to learn in sculpting sound-- EQ, compression, effects, panning-- I've probably left something out but most tools are just combinations or variants of these things. So you do need to know how to use and EQ, but the reason why is what's important.So my son recently asks me, how do I get a better guitar sound. I went over the options of micing techniques and direct signals, then told him to find some examples of what he wanted it to sound like. Listen carefully to how it's panned and effected in a recording you like, get that kind of tone from your amp and experiment with the things you know to do until you get the sound. He spent several weeks playing with sounds, learning how to get big fat wall of sound guitars and small thin but in your face clean leads. The thing is, I could have saved him some time, but the results were much better than if I had showed him how. He learned the process of learning and ended up with some guitar tracks that are more unique for his sound than what i would have probably recorded.All that to say this--- find a sound you want to emulate and figure out how to get it. You found the pan nob-- are learning how to use it, now the fun part of figuring out WHAT to do with it begins. Listen closely to stuff that is in you genre. How is panned used? What do you like and want to emulate? It's a fun game and even though I've been doing this for many years, I still listen and play that game a lot.What do you want it to sound like? That for me is the key to all things production.Aub

[feaker]

AubGreat that you and your soon love music. What a resource for him having a reference library in his dad. I can tell you are proud:)If a sponge is emersed, it will soak up and be full. My brain on the other hand...It would be nice to have one other person to have locally as a studio friend. Tough by yourself. Just to say "what do you think". So fortunate to have taxi.By the way, let me know if you ever do "find a way back to yesterday" I will be on the train.Paul

[ibanez468]

Hey Feak!Here's an exercise ta' try out. Plug in somethin' to your Mackie so you can play around, somethin' like a CD player that you can plug-in like you would your guitar. See, you can hit the play button on the CD player while a CD is playin' and then you can manipulate the board and actually hear how all the knobs affect the sounds that are comin' from the CD player. See, it's harder to be playin' the guitar, and tryin' ta' turn knobs on the board at the same time, and listening to the differences in the sound and how it changes. If ya' plug in somethin' and let it play automatically, then your hands are free ta' try things out on the board. See what I'm sayin'? Then you can try out the eq section of the board, and then try out the panning knobs, etc...Likewise, if you can plug that same sound into your computer (or import any .wav file into your DAW) you can do the same thing. Just play the .wav file while you tinker around and turn knobs & press buttons on your DAW. That's how I learned what did what, and how this works, and oooh, what's this do? Once ya' figure it all out, then you can apply ta' real world situations. But it does require you ta' play around for a bit (or however long it takes) in order ta' learn what everything does. And some reading of manuals or anything you can find on the internet, can be of great help. Use your HELP menus for your Sonar program. When I want ta' know how ta' do something in any DAW, I always go to the HELP menu of the program. I usually can always find an answer there. Patience & especially Persistence: the 2 key ingredients! Have FUN!I-468

[feaker]

Great idea IbyI have a tendency to use the "anything ventured, something might get permanently lost" philosophy. Too much tip-toeing around. Time to explore a little.My biggest problem is always another song in my head I want to start building:)I am determined to finish this last one. Don't even like it. Just want it to have all the elementsright.There is just so much to discover in this business. I wish I would have started at age 40.Peace manPaul

[ibanez468]

What I always do is ta' test the waters with something I don't mind screwin' up. I mean with all of these new programs that I've purchased over the last few months, doin' some testing first, is always in order. I test, tinker, terminate. Once I've got enough information on how the application works, then I get down to the real business at hand.But I always do my testing with files that I don't mind destroying or deleting, or I make a copy or a "dummy" file ta' work with so that no harm comes to the original. Just some things ta' think about. You don't always hafta' work with an original file. You can always work with a copy and spare your original works any trauma. Learn on the computer how ta' make copies of your original files so you can feel free to "muck" up the copy if need be. There's nothin' worse than deleting a file by accident after all of the work that you put into it, and it was the only one. Total heartbreaker.I-468

[ernstinen]

Jul 18, 2008, 10:28am, aubreyz wrote:Guitar With only one recorded mono take:• To get a wider sound, duplicate the track and pan each hard L,R. Add 10 to 20 ms of delay to one track and it will widen the pan. For even more variety, add a tube, amp, or other coloration plug to one side. Great stuff, Aub!Yea, the delay trick is a good one. I've used that a lot. Plus, I agree that double-tracking guitars is a good idea, or using two amps for electric guitar and panning them in stereo.One studio gig I had was to remix a rock band. The guitar part was played well, but sounded TERRIBLE! So I took an output of that track and ran it into my Soldano guitar amp. After some tweaking and effects, I re-recorded it and voila! Sounded like Eric Clapton (almost ).Also, using a bit of stereo chorus on mono guitar tracks can do wonders if you don't overdo it. Using that and some short panned delay, and double-tracking the guitars can make an acoustic guitar almost sound like a bunch of guitarists are playing together in the room, like Jeff Lynne's productions or Tom Petty's "Learning To Fly" (which probably IS about 10 guitarists playing together in the same room! ).Ern

[mojobone]

Prescription for cluttered mixes: EQ first, then pan. When I start a mix, I leave it mono until I've made some EQ decisions regarding the basic elements. I set rough levels first, making sure everything in the mix can be heard, then ask myself if anything is being masked by something else; if so, I reach for the EQ to try to carve out a niche for each element. Usually this involves working to 'marry' the Bass and the Kick drum, because the lows and low-mids have the greatest tendency of masking or muddying other instruments.Often, I'll emphasize the thump and the beater click of the kick, using narrow EQ boosts at about 68 hz and 2kz and scooping out, or subtracting a broader range of frequencies centered around 350-400hz to make a hole for the bass to 'sit' in. (I pull 400hz out of just about everything but bass, and sometimes even that. It's a very wooly frequency)Next, I turn to the snare and the vocal, which both occupy the midrange, and see to it that they don't interfere with each other. These elements are traditionally panned center, because if a stereo channel should drop out on the user's end, you don't want any of them to go away. (certain 60s bands can sound very strange when that happens)I always subtract first: if an instrument appears to need more treble, I try to fix it by removing bass or mids from something else. Over the long haul this subtractive EQ approach will do more to clear up your mixes than anything else. You'll be amazed at how small a part of an instrument's entire sound you actually need to hear.When I have these important elements working well together, then I attend to ear candy and panning tricks, which tend to be more effective with higher-frequency material, because it's more directional. This is also the stage where I start making decisions about which instruments will be up front and which will be placed further back in the mix using delays, reverbs or best of all, distant miking to give the mix dimension. (distance makes depth)Acoustic guitars can be a problem, especially multiple acoustic guitars; they have a lot of low-mid energy, and stacking them can lead to a sea of mud. I like the Nashville approach, where everything but the scrape of the pick is carved out with subtractive EQ, and treated as a rhythmic element; sort of an auxiliary Hi-hat.For further reading, I recommend "The Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook", it's aimed at front of house engineers, but does a bang-up job of clearly illustrating the important mixing concepts that apply to both live sound and recording. It also has a MIDI primer and terrific glossary of terms. Another great resource is "Mix It Like A Record". For beginners, Recording magazine is still tops, and for more advanced DAW tips and techniques, I love "Sound On Sound". If you haven't done so already, Studio Buddy is a great, and searchable,free download.For an example of a busy mix where each element has its own space and everything can be clearly heard, listen to any recent Keith Urban recording.There are no 'hard and fast' rules, though; remember, if it sounds good, it is good.

[feaker]

AmazingI hope there are many that are helped by this discussion. For myself, it is a whole new challenge and direction.I would like to thank everyone who replied to this thread.SincerelyPaul