When Is It Too Loud?

[southpaw]

Quote:Is this a measurement taken from an analog console? A digital output level can't be greater than 0dBfs...unless you've just invented "trinary." hey Andre, i might be misunderstanding something, all i know is the output volume of the mix registered at +0.3 with a multilimiter on the final bus. When i tinker with the waveform i'll most often use a brickwall limiter set to 0db. Again, i might be ignorant in this respect, are you saying that even if the mix output is clipping above 0db, that bouncing the mix down ignores the signal above 0db? Cheers, Jamie

[andreh]

Jan 12, 2009, 11:46am, southpaw wrote:Quote:Is this a measurement taken from an analog console? A digital output level can't be greater than 0dBfs...unless you've just invented "trinary." hey Andre, i might be misunderstanding something, all i know is the output volume of the mix registered at +0.3 with a multilimiter on the final bus. When i tinker with the waveform i'll most often use a brickwall limiter set to 0db. Again, i might be ignorant in this respect, are you saying that even if the mix output is clipping above 0db, that bouncing the mix down ignores the signal above 0db? Cheers, Jamie Jamie-If you're using a multi-meter (off your board, assume?) then you're measuring an analog signal. In this case, yes, you could achieve a signal above 0dBu (or "deciBels unloaded," an analog measurement). How far above would depend on the level at which you have your system calibrated and how much headroom (or "space" above 0dBu) you've left in it.The "loudness" we've been discussing on this thread has to do with the digital signal that exists on a CD or MP3. The loudest possible signal that can be represented by digits is 0dBfs (or "zero deciBels full scale," usually a digital measurement), meaning every single bit in the sample representing a particular moment in time is turned on. You simply can't get any more "on" than this.Back in the analog world, you could actually have a signal measure louder coming off a CD or MP3 than that which was fed into it originally due to the way the numbers are interpreted on playback...but this isn't something you'd ever see reflected in the stored waveform.Hope I didn't make more of a mess of things here! André

[jonathanm]

According to bumper stickers and t-shirts I've seen, the answer to Mark's question in the thread title would be: "When you're too old!" (there were too many useful posts in this thread; had to break the pattern...)

[mojobone]

Andreh, perhaps Southpaw has a meter that reads inter-sample peaks, either that, or he's using a VU meter. For the record, my post above references (okay, refers) to 0dBFS. (decibels full scale)

[andreh]

Jan 12, 2009, 3:23pm, mojobone wrote:Andreh, perhaps Southpaw has a meter that reads inter-sample peaks,Ahh, hadn't considered that...and the numbers he mentioned (+.3dB) are about what you'd expect for intersample peaks. Good catch mojo!Jamie, what device or software are you using to measure your levels? Where in the signal chain do you have it placed?André

[ernstinen]

I use my ears. When I master, I NEVER use maximizers. I've got the WAVES bundle and it sits on the shelf.During mastering, I "tip" my peak levels into the red occasionally in ProTools, and leave the digital signal (when I do a 24/96 transfer into my Alesis Masterlink) as is, which leaves a few db of headroom.Of course, I'm doing orchestral music, and am a fan of dynamics in that genre. For rock, though, I like the peaks as loud as possible, but would NEVER do what Metallica did on their last album. As others have said, there is a petition to have them re-mix/re-master that recording. When you squash digital music as they did, it sounds like total digital noise. Not good! Even hard rock needs some dynamic range, IMHO.My take is give the dynamics some room to breathe. Forget "Who's the LOUDEST." It all comes down to songwriting, performance, and vibe in the end.Ern

[southpaw]

Quote:Jamie, what device or software are you using to measure your levels? Where in the signal chain do you have it placed?Andre, i am using a multi-meter plugin in logic. Instantiated - last on the final mix bus. (output channel) The signal was processed through a sonalksis multilimiter first. It is a digital signal within logic. Again, im not sure about much more than that, i will have to look into it and try to figure out why i am confused. I must of missed that day of class! Jamie

[jonathanm]

Jan 12, 2009, 6:08pm, ernstinen wrote:It all comes down to songwriting, performance, and vibe in the end.Amen to that! At some point in the future, all this supercompressed loudness will be abandoned for the next fad. Not saying a good solid sound will go away, but the brick-wall waveforms will yield to another sound that will be desirable for a time, just as the 80's wet mix yielded to the dry mix.What matters, wet, dry, loud or dynamic, is the way the song, artist and groove all come together. When I listen to 50's thru 80's music these days, sure I notice the production techniques, but the main thing I hear on the good stuff is the song, artist and groove. When they listen 25 years from now, those three will still be the distinguishing elements.

[telaak]

wow..i've been recording alot lately {myself & others} and wondering the same questions..thanks ~ I learn SO much here..

[davekershaw]

This thread's been really useful!I'm still trying to get my head around compression and limiting,but this has explained a few things.