Giving a producer co-writer credit

[asiabackpacker]

Hey guys,I'm pretty new to all this, so forgive me for what might be a basic question, and some newbie ignorance...I've just started working with a producer to produce 2 songs.One of the things we discussed before we began working together was that he could help me develop the songs. But when we're working on the songs, he's very restrained as to offer specific feedback, as he says anything more than what he is offering me will constitute co-writing and co-writer credit.My question is, is it normal for a producer to take co-writer credit for getting involved in shaping a song.He is not writing any new parts. I've written all the lyrics, and melody. But he has ideas to help me refine the melody and make it stronger, but these are what he is not giving me, because that is what he deems co-writing.I'm pretty sure that i don't want to give him co-writer credit. I don't think that is my question. I'm just wondering if it's normal to hear this from a producer. In my limited experience of working with producers in the past, what I have heard (from the producer) is, if they write a new part to the song, write a section of lyrics, that is co-writing, but help with the melody, structure, and harmonies, that is not considered co-writing. Does this sound about right?Thanks!Elliott

[nomiyah]

Quote:Hey guys,I'm pretty new to all this, so forgive me for what might be a basic question, and some newbie ignorance...I've just started working with a producer to produce 2 songs.One of the things we discussed before we began working together was that he could help me develop the songs. But when we're working on the songs, he's very restrained as to offer specific feedback, as he says anything more than what he is offering me will constitute co-writing and co-writer credit.My question is, is it normal for a producer to take co-writer credit for getting involved in shaping a song.He is not writing any new parts. I've written all the lyrics, and melody. But he has ideas to help me refine the melody and make it stronger, but these are what he is not giving me, because that is what he deems co-writing.I'm pretty sure that i don't want to give him co-writer credit. I don't think that is my question. I'm just wondering if it's normal to hear this from a producer. In my limited experience of working with producers in the past, what I have heard (from the producer) is, if they write a new part to the song, write a section of lyrics, that is co-writing, but help with the melody, structure, and harmonies, that is not considered co-writing. Does this sound about right?Thanks!ElliottAccording to the Office of Copyrights, a song is considered to be melody and lyrics. If the producer contributes to the melody, that is cowriting. However, arrangement (like structure and harmony) is not considered songwriting.In my experience (being both songwriter and producer), some producers just contribute as much as they can and don't want any co-writing credit because they are being paid upfront. They think of it as helping their client. Other producers are very much co-writers, contributing significantly to making the song better, and they deserve the credit for creation. Does this help?The most important thing is to agree beforehand how you will handle it so you don't have misunderstandings later.Nomi

[edteja]

Quote:The most important thing is to agree beforehand how you will handle it so you don't have misunderstandings later.NomiI'd like to add that I would want that understanding in writing. I've seen too many bad memories down the road.

[ernstinen]

Quote:The most important thing is to agree beforehand how you will handle it so you don't have misunderstandings later.Good point, Nomi!I met a songwriter once who INSISTED that if he even changed ONE word of the lyric or one note of the melody, he would get 50% of the songwriting credit.Needless to say, I didn't write with this jackass. Ern

[booker]

Seems that I've heard the phrase "a word for a third" (of the writers share). I would say that it would depend on the value of what's being added. If your song is "ok" in lyric and melody and your producer puts in a killer guitar lick that "makes" the song stand out, I don't know that I would be that selfish about it. Example: the guitar lick in "Something" by George Harrison. That guitar lick has defined that song. If your producer takes an ok song and makes a hit out of it .... share the credit.

[stick]

As a producer and songwriter, I run into this here and there. I think your guy is more than justified in expecting some co-writing credit. I'm often asked to harmonize a melody, or build a track that is a critical part of the song, and the writer is happy to give me co-writing for that. Just because the Copyright office defines a song one way, doesn't mean you CAN'T give a percentage away if you think it's deserved. We all know the songwriting is where the real cash is in the long run. You don't have to give him 50%, give him 5% for changing the second line of the verse. Give him 40% for changing the hook in the chorus. But YOU have to decide if he's just changing it to get writing or if it's better. That should be the deal when you allow him to make a change. It's YOUR song to start with. And, cutting smaller percentages can get convoluted and can become a battle after the song is done when he wants more than you want to give him. Again, make it clear it's YOUR song and YOUR call whether to use the changes. My policy for starting a song with a co-writer in the room is 50% no matter how much either of us contributes. In my experience, your song will almost ALWAYS be better for the collaboration... well, assuming he's a least as good a songwriter as you are.

[vermeer]

Here's a trick I've used lately to dive the leaches away:1) Insist that if they want songwriter credits, they cannot get paid too: it's one or the other. They always take the money. Otherwise, they work their asses off to make the track better and you both win 2) Record a version of your song totally on your own beforehand and send a copy to your lawyer for reference. Then have the producer listen to it and sign a document stating that if his melody or lyrical ideas are not used, he gets nothing. Then you can just work with him like any other co-writer.The basic idea here is that if someone thrully believe that they can make a major contribution, they will do it for free. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Vermeer

[brock]

To asiabackpacker:I don't think the producer is totally out of line in expecting some credit if s/he materially contributes to the song (ie a melody, harmony, guitar riff, etc). Where it gets more tricky is in situations where there is (arguably) no material contribution. Unfortunately, there is no single standard for these situations. It basically boils down to what two (or more) people agree on. Allow me to give my own experience as an example:When I record rock songs, my engineer often has suggestions and ideas for me. These could recording related, such as: "Use the Tele, not the Gibson" or they could be song-related, such as: "I think you should make the verse shorter" or "If I were you, I would change that line"In general, engineering advice does not equal co-writing credit. However, it's arguable that his craft-related ideas could constitute co-writing.I have been told that in Nashville, if two people sit down and work on a song, they are co-writers. Period. Even if one person writes 100% of the music and lyrics and the other person just says "I think verse 2 should be about baseball..." and that is ALL they contribute. If you take the idea, you are now co-writers.So, the bottom line, IMO, is that you should very, very clearly define the parameters your working relationship BEFORE you start so that there are no misunderstandings later. If you are "legally-minded" it might not hurt to get it in writing in advance.

[asiabackpacker]

Thanks for all these great tips guys.What I've concluded from all this, is that I need to be really specific with a producer before beginning to work together about what he considers co-writing (it seems different people have different definitions of what constitutes this), and also that if we are going to agree to a co-writer credit, it will be in lieu of any upfront payment for the producer's services.And to put this in writing!Thanks!

[stick]

Well, I'm not sure a co-writer credit means he shouldn't get paid for "producing". Again, it depends on what he's doing... a producer can wear a lot of hats.