confused re drums

[hummingbird]

I got some feedback on another songwriting board about an instrumental cue I just created, and more than one person commented on the drums. - drums a bit thin in tone / could use a deeper sound- the drums sound 'toy-like'- if you could get more depth in the drum sounds, that would be great- I think the drums are limited by the sample of the actual instrument that your sampler/rompler is usingI find this confusing, cause all the drums on this piece are recorded live - not midi samples, but actual recordings of a live drummer. Some are individual sounds I looped myself, and some are loops I looped. I purchased several CDs of different styles from Beta Monkey Music, and that's what I'm using. They say "Beta Monkey Music offers a wide variety of clean, pure drum loops. Original, licence-free drum loops & drum/cymbal samples." And the feedback is saying they don't sound authentic? I wondered if it was more about the effects, or my choice of loop/drum sample, rather than the actual sound itself. If you want to hear it, the piece is "green light" - http://www.vikkiflawith.com/song/0

[emusic]

I think they mean the sound itself. It sounds a bit "thin" in my ears too. But that might come from processing it? Have you used any effects at all on the drumtracks? EQ, filter etc.?A tune like that could maybe use some more dynamic drums but its up to the producer; you.I checked out 2-3 loops from Beta Monkey on their website and I think they sound great. Sure that you didn´t use a loop that actually IS thin?It´s a little hard for me to point out what gives this "thin" sound.What sequencer are you using?

[aubreyz]

Vikki,A few questions:1. Did you change the tempo of the drums using some kind of time compression when looping?2. Is there compression and EQ on the drum track.3. Are you using some kind of mastering plugin like Ozone?Aub

[davewalton]

Quote:I got some feedback on another songwriting board about an instrumental cue I just created, and more than one person commented on the drums. - drums a bit thin in tone / could use a deeper sound- the drums sound 'toy-like'- if you could get more depth in the drum sounds, that would be great- I think the drums are limited by the sample of the actual instrument that your sampler/rompler is usingI find this confusing, cause all the drums on this piece are recorded live - not midi samples, but actual recordings of a live drummer. Some are individual sounds I looped myself, and some are loops I looped. I purchased several CDs of different styles from Beta Monkey Music, and that's what I'm using. They say "Beta Monkey Music offers a wide variety of clean, pure drum loops. Original, licence-free drum loops & drum/cymbal samples." And the feedback is saying they don't sound authentic? I wondered if it was more about the effects, or my choice of loop/drum sample, rather than the actual sound itself. If you want to hear it, the piece is "green light" - http://www.vikkiflawith.com/song/0 Hi Vikki,I also listened to some of their demos and they sound fine. Through a little bit of URL, um, "creativity", I was able to download one of the home page drum samples that I thought was close to yours. When I A/B it to a more or less similar drum from Stormdrum (a very good package), it still sounds fine.I think what's happening is that you've taken the loop out of its comfort zone. Other than Stylus RMX, most drum/percussion loops and/or virtual instruments have to be played in or very near their original BPM. Playing a 90BPM beat at 100BPM might work OK (but not always) but playing a 100BPM beat at 90BPM almost never works. For the most part, going a little faster might work OK, but going slower almost always never works. Going a lot more either way almost always never works either.You're getting a lot of wierd artifacts and double stuttering sounds that usually appears when you play a loop too far away from the original BPM, especially with ACIDized WAV files. REX files are a little more flexible but not much.Other than Stylus RMX loops, I almost always pick my BPM so that I can use a particular loop exactly as it was recorded so as not to have any of those wierd artifacts in the sound.Dave

[hummingbird]

Hmmm okay, I didn't change the tempo of the drums at all. The song is 140 and I used some 140 samples - but I also did a half-time 70 bpm sample (which was available in the 140bpm file) for variety. Maybe that's part of the problem. I have several drum tracks, all are compressed. I have 4-band EQ but EQing drums (and vocals) is something I don't quite understand yet. I know you need to do it... but I'm not sure what frequencies I'm supposed be avoiding for certain instruments.My sequencer is Tracktion2, but the drums aren't sequenced (I didn't use a midi keyboard to trigger them), I placed them bar by bar.I'd like to get Ozone & Stylus... I did try an Ozone free trial, just have to budget to get them as soon as I can. Like this week!!V

[aubreyz]

Quote:Hmmm okay, I didn't change the tempo of the drums at all. The song is 140 and I used some 140 samples - but I also did a half-time 70 bpm sample (which was available in the 140bpm file) for variety. Maybe that's part of the problem. I have several drum tracks, all are compressed. I have 4-band EQ but EQing drums (and vocals) is something I don't quite understand yet. I know you need to do it... but I'm not sure what frequencies I'm supposed be avoiding for certain instruments.My sequencer is Tracktion2, but the drums aren't sequenced (I didn't use a midi keyboard to trigger them), I placed them bar by bar.I'd like to get Ozone & Stylus... I did try an Ozone free trial, just have to budget to get them as soon as I can. Like this week!!VSamples like Beta Monkey are usually pretty much ready made. That is, they are preprocessed, compressed, eq'd etc. I'm going to bet that if you remove the compression from your drum tracks, the thin will fatten back out. Also, you don't always need to eq -- in fact less is more. Also, you have to be pretty careful using compression... a little can go a long way, and a lot can squash the life out of a track.The reason I asked about Ozone, is that most of the presets can really thin out a mix or a track. It's not very high on my list, and though it can be a useful tool if used sparingly, IMHO you really need to know how to tweak to get the most out of it. Stylus might be a worthwhile investment for you, but I wouldn't mess with Ozone yet._______________Not to hijack the thread, but something I was just thinking that might be really helpful on this forum is a section for tricks and techniques, with different threads for different elements of production. It would be very interesting to read the different things we all do, and have learned about different things... like:Mixing methods:KickSnareTomsHatsLead VocalsBG VocalsAcoustic GuitarBassPiano...etc.. etc...There have been a lot of very interesting comments about such things on this forum, but how cool would it be to have an ongoing reference point.It would also be helpful if we would start putting our recording platform in our signature or profile. It's hard to remember sometimes.AubPro Tools Snob

[nomiyah]

Quote:[quote author=hummingbird board=nick thread=1183512528 post=1183520942]Not to hijack the thread, but something I was just thinking that might be really helpful on this forum is a section for tricks and techniques, with different threads for different elements of production. It would be very interesting to read the different things we all do, and have learned about different things... like:Mixing methods:KickSnareTomsHatsLead VocalsBG VocalsAcoustic GuitarBassPiano...etc.. etc...There have been a lot of very interesting comments about such things on this forum, but how cool would it be to have an ongoing reference point.It would also be helpful if we would start putting our recording platform in our signature or profile. It's hard to remember sometimes.AubPro Tools Snob Aub,I second the motion. By the way, I like reading your posts, though I don't always respond, I've picked up some good tips. While I'm at it, you've got some serious talent!!! Not to hijack the thread or anything...Nomi

[hummingbird]

Quote:Quote:[quote author=hummingbird board=nick thread=1183512528 post=1183520942]Not to hijack the thread, but something I was just thinking that might be really helpful on this forum is a section for tricks and techniques, with different threads for different elements of production. It would be very interesting to read the different things we all do, and have learned about different things... like:Mixing methods:KickSnareTomsHatsLead VocalsBG VocalsAcoustic GuitarBassPiano...etc.. etc...There have been a lot of very interesting comments about such things on this forum, but how cool would it be to have an ongoing reference point.It would also be helpful if we would start putting our recording platform in our signature or profile. It's hard to remember sometimes.AubPro Tools Snob Aub,I second the motion. By the way, I like reading your posts, though I don't always respond, I've picked up some good tips. While I'm at it, you've got some serious talent!!! Not to hijack the thread or anything...NomiI agree. I try to bookmark interesting stuff but it all gets away from me after a while

[crs7string]

I think that the drum track is probably the most critical element to an instrumental piece and can be the hardest track to get right. I love Stylus and its capacity to layer and process grooves. The expanders are all terrific.I also have begun using EZ Drummer. I've had it for a while, but only recently have been incorporating it in compositions. I like the direction Toontracks is taking with expanders. The Nashville expander drummer is Harry Stinson and Chuck Ainley was the engineer. The midi grooves are not just pigeon holed to country. I just submitted a piece for the Henry Mancini listing using some 6/8 grooves. Also, because the grooves are midi, you can tweak cymbal hits, fills, etc.Finally, if you are inclined to "roll your own" Battery 3 is a great library of nearly everything, including marching band drums.Chuck

[emusic]

Quote:...I have 4-band EQ but EQing drums (and vocals) is something I don't quite understand yet. I know you need to do it... but I'm not sure what frequencies I'm supposed be avoiding for certain instruments.If you have a good listening environement (monitors), then there aint too many special rules to apply to EQ. Just remove frequencies where you beleive you hear a fight between two instruments. A good example is often "freq.fights" between a bass and a piano/guitar that has way too much bottom (low frequencies too boosted or too little eased off). Solo the 2 tracks and try to reduce top end in the bass, bottom in the guitar (or piano) until you hear the definition of the two instruments take place and the mix (2 tracks) becomes a more enjoyable piece to listen too.Frequency fights might easily lead to listening fatique.Just play around with the other tracks as well to make them "sit" where they belong in the freq. painting. That goes for vocal tracks as much as for drums. Solo/mute and knob till you got what your ears beleive is a good and seperated sonic image.If you have an EQ in your sequencer you might be lucky enough to get a visual "scope" of each tracks frequency. That way it is easier to see what frequencies are dominant in each track. But if your EQ dont offer visuals, you can still try back/forth until your ears are more satisfied with the result of definition in the mix. I heard a track from you over at myspace.com. That had a very clear and good sounding vocal track. Great voice. Great vocal recording. EQ was right on target in my ears. The song was "Goodbye my friend". If I could say so, I would maybe go a little more easy on the vibrato though. Less might be even better with that great voice. One of the vocalists connected to our songwriter studio has a choir background, and she also has this vibrato that sure sounds great; but sometimes becomes a bit too overwhelming. I guess you have a choir background?But unless you have monitors or a neutral pair of headphones, it´s really hard to gain ground by knobbing the EQ values, because it will sound a lot different on speakers/boxes depending on how/what part of sound they color.Lets say your listening environement aint good enough. You make what you think is a good top end with sparkle in the vocals and crispy hihats and perc.. The truth is that it doesnt have a crispy and sparkling top, since your only option for mixing is a pair of Sony MDR 7506´s (a very bright top end headset; not any neutral at all). That mix played back on a box that doesnt handle top at all will make your mix stand forward as muddy and totally without "air".Hopefully I didn´t repeat stuff you allready know. If I did - my apologies.RegardsEmusic