neverending mix #2

[hummingbird]

Hi - I just got a custom critique back on my song, "Goodbye My Friend", and one of the things I had asked to be reviewed was the production. They said, "You've done a good of arranging here! For a rough demo, this will work fine. For broadcast quality, you might want to hire an engineer to give the mix more liveliness and clarity and also balance the vocal with the instruments, bringing the instruments up to surround the vocal but making sure they don't get in the way."My aim is to get to broadcast quality without going to someone else. So my question is, what specific things should I do to this mix to make it work more effectively. Panning, EQ, compression... etc? Can you help me understand how to get it to sound right? (Goal is film/tv, classical-pop crossover)(I am aware I need to redo the vocals - allergies, argh!!!)Goodbye My Friendhi-fihttp://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player ... q=lo&ref=2

[ernstinen]

Hi Hummin'bird!Nice song and vocal, Vikki! As a (former) demo producer, the first thing I hear is your microphone doesn't do your voice justice. I know you use an SM-57, which is a great all-purpose mic, so if you can't afford to buy a large diaphragm condenser mic, here's a suggestion: Get a pop-screen (if you don't have one) and get REAL close to the 57. You'll have to turn you mic gain down, of course, and experiment with your compressor. I like a ratio of about 4:1 for vocals.Once you have your vocals sounding bigger and richer, then it's time to beef up your rhythm track. I barely heard ANY bass at all. And the drums were way off in the distance.I really liked the piano and string parts. They SOUND fine, just not loud enough.As a reference, listen to CD's of your influences. Let's say if Joni Mitchell is one, listen to "Court and Spark" and compare her mixes to yours (through the same speakers).Hope this helps,Ern

[mazz]

Hi Vicki,Very nice song. I can tell you can hear the arrangement you want, all the parts are there and in the right places to support the vocal but the mix is not supporting the song.I'm hearing overall brightness in the mix which sounds like it's being caused by an excess of frequencies in the 3 - 6 Khz range in the vocals and strings (see below). The bass is not loud enough to support the rest of the band. The percussion is way too soft for what you are trying to achieve.Some suggestions:1. A better mic will be a great addition to your studio if you can swing it. Your voice already has a presence peak in the range that the SM57 has a presence peak. While it may be good for the lead vocal, if your background vocals are recorded with you in the same position on the mic, then those frequencies build up and all of the vocals end up sounding too bright. If you like the backing vox and want to keep them, then EQ down the frequencies in the 3 - 6 Khz range (you'll have to experiment) on those tracks. Better yet, buss those tracks to a stereo buss and EQ them as a group. This will save on CPU and will give a more homogenous sound. Otherwise, recut the backing vocals and try singing into the mic from a different angle or further away or even closer. Experiement with singing them in a softer voice than the lead. 2. Your strings also have a presence peak in the same frequency range as your vocal. The same suggestion for EQ applies here as to the backing vocals. You'll be amazed if you do this how much warmer things will sound without having to do much volume shifting.3. While I haven't listened to them in a while, Enya and Lorrena McKennet (sp) come to mind when I listen to this song. Their productions are nice and full but the vocals are still sitting just right in the mix. Listen to them or whomever your influences are and really analyze the mixes and what makes them sound like they do. What does the bass sound like? Does it have a lot of high frequencies in it or is it muted? Where are the strings panned? Are the backing vox and the lead vox sharing the same reverbs and delays? How loud are the drums compared to the other instruments? And so on.....4. The reverb on the lead vocal is a bit too loud and bright, IMO. In nature, high frequencies die away much quicker than low frequencies. In a room, reverberation generally sounds less bright than the original sound due to this phenomenon. Digital reverbs give us the ability to fool Mother Nature but in the case of this song, I'm not sure that's the right approach. If I were mixing this, I'd put a little bit longer pre-delay on the reverb and cut some of the high frequencies and turn down the reverb overall. This may add a nice spaciousness to the vocal without screaming "DEMO" 5. Don't be afraid of the bass and percussion sounds. Give them some more punch and let them support the emotion of the song. If you want to bring them in gradually, that's cool but when they're all the way in, let them support the emotion of "Goodbye my Friend". Otherwise they sound lukewarm and distracting. Sometimes saying goodbye is a deep experience, let it out!! Mixing is the art of taking a little bit away from everything so that the whole is enhanced. When I first started, I subscribed to the school of "turn everything up louder than everything else" You can imagine what that sounded like! Then I learned the art of using EQ to cut rather than boost and that's when things started to fall in to place. I will never profess to have it down completely, it's an ongoing process. I hope you can learn from my mistakes.Your music is very nice and I'm looking forward to hearing the remix.Mazz

[mixopenta]

I've just listened to the song, which I think is great, - And Vikki you also have a great voice!All suggestions have been right on the spot, so I thought I'd pitch a more unconventional idea to add to the equation, please bear with me... The song, or the presentation of the song has kind of a "wavy" character to it, - like ocean waves. Now, I'm not the best lyrical interpretor, but do I hear "sailing" somewhere in the lyrics?If that is the case, I'd go for making the mix support the feeling of drifting on waves, without overdoing it of course, making it too "bumpy" and lose continuity. But finding the right balance so that the mix speaks, and enhance lyrical content seems to me like a good idea.If there is no "sailing" in the lyrics, or the "waviness" is just not part of the story at all, just disregard this suggestion, and/or work against it.I apologize if I'm moving too far into la-la land, but that's just the way I am.

[hummingbird]

Thanks everyone for all the replies - lots to think about. I know I have a lot to learn. I may have many more questions, but...#1 - if you had Enya or Loreena McKennitt (my two sound alikes) in your studio, what mic would you use to record their lead vocals?#2 - okay, now, what mic under $500 would do a similar job I'm thinking I might be able to rent one and try it out, and then buy it if it sounds good to y'all.H

[hummingbird]

Quote:From a personal point of view I'd have to agree with the critique. Your voice came across well, and I can hear those operatic tones creeping in all the way to the diaphragm. I felt like the music needed to be bigger and wider because of your voice. Your voice has depth and tone, and the music doesn't seem to match that. Similar to what they said really. The music needs to dance with your voice in a ballroom. It's a lovely song.I have one thing to add to this. Why is it that we find it so easy to identify inconsistencies in other peoples music, but can't seem to do it with our own?When people request comments on their music. I listen and can hear specifics. When I listen to my own, I know it's not right, but I'll be damned if I can work out what is awry.Know what I'm talking about?I knew there were inconsistencies in this, that's why I asked specifically about production in the custom critique. I hear that it isn't working, but I don't have the specific knowledge to make it right. I'm hoping, with the help of folks here, to understand what I need to do to mix it effectively. However, I agree, I find it much easier to look at someone else's work and see what needs to be tweaked. I guess that's why we have mentors & critiquers

[ernstinen]

Quote:I'm thinking I might be able to rent one and try it out, and then buy it if it sounds good to y'all.That's a great idea. I used to rent mics all the time to find one that fit my voice. Unfortunately, it was a Neumann U87 --- Ern

[hummingbird]

Quote:Quote:I'm thinking I might be able to rent one and try it out, and then buy it if it sounds good to y'all.That's a great idea. I used to rent mics all the time to find one that fit my voice. Unfortunately, it was a Neumann U87 --- Ern which brings us to question 2

[jeffe]

Quote:Quote:From a personal point of view I'd have to agree with the critique. Your voice came across well, and I can hear those operatic tones creeping in all the way to the diaphragm. I felt like the music needed to be bigger and wider because of your voice. Your voice has depth and tone, and the music doesn't seem to match that. Similar to what they said really. The music needs to dance with your voice in a ballroom. It's a lovely song.I have one thing to add to this. Why is it that we find it so easy to identify inconsistencies in other peoples music, but can't seem to do it with our own?When people request comments on their music. I listen and can hear specifics. When I listen to my own, I know it's not right, but I'll be damned if I can work out what is awry.Know what I'm talking about?I knew there were inconsistencies in this, that's why I asked specifically about production in the custom critique. I hear that it isn't working, but I don't have the specific knowledge to make it right. I'm hoping, with the help of folks here, to understand what I need to do to mix it effectively. However, I agree, I find it much easier to look at someone else's work and see what needs to be tweaked. I guess that's why we have mentors & critiquers Sure is.I've picked up a few valuable pointers in the last week myself. The mixed knowledge of members of this forum is essential.

[mazz]

I recommend renting or at least finding a store that will let you try out various mics.Alternatively, Guitar Center, Musician's Friend and I'm sure others have a 30 day return policy which is pretty much like renting. Buy the mic, record some tracks with it, if you don't like it, return it before the credit card bill comes in.The recommendations for the Rode mics are good ones, I've heard good things about them.A mic that intrigues me these days is a Heil PR40. It's a dynamic (like the SM57) but it's a large diaphragm. Lots of people are using them for voice overs and it's pretty inexpensive. I haven't heard one but the reviews have been generally positive.There are deals to be had on used gear as well although I'd only get something through a reputable dealer that you can interact with face to face. A few years ago my wife and I were mic shopping and we found a Neumann TLM 193 for 700.00 including shock mount which is usually 150 by itself. It was in perfect shape. We tried it out at the local shop that deals in used studio gear (they broker entire studios that go out of business) and I trust them totally. Never had a problem.The Audio Technica mics are well regarded. They have a number of models in your price range. The MXL mics are inexpensive but some of them have the "Neumann-esque" presence peak but without the smoothness of a Neumann. The tube MXL with the Mogami cable may sound pretty nice. For your voice, a tube mic might be the ticket.If I had Enya or Lorenna in my studio, I'd try 3 different mics: A solid state condenser for a brighter sound, A tube condenser for a fatter, smooth sound, a ribbon for a bit of a darker color. These are broad categories and any of those types of mics will exhibit any of the characteristics of the other but it's a good place to start.If you're near Vancouver, maybe you can rent some mics and a couple of hours in a local studio and record some things with all the mics set up at the same time, each to it's own track and then burn a CD and evaluate them on your own time.I hope this isn't overwhelming. I'm obsessive about this stuff and don't have anyone to talk with about it in everyday life so you guys get the brunt of it. Feel free to tell me to stop Ciao for now,Mazz