what's most important for a film-tv song?

[squids]

Nov 20, 2008, 3:10pm, billg wrote:"Bill G and I have the same problem "Nita, I don't even deserve to have my voice in the same sentence with yours.Shyeah. That's why I dream of havin' your voice. Also, it would be exceptionally cool if I could steal yo bass playin' and harp stuff too. So I guess I dream of bein' you all ova. Only maybe with mo time left and a huge -azz contract. Also, I would be taller and that's gotta feel good too.

[squids]

Nov 20, 2008, 6:15pm, hummingbird wrote:here are some additional thoughts from the rally - they apply to instrumentals but I think you can apply them to songs as well....- don't change keys, or tempo- set a mood & stick with it- generic lyrics that create an atmosphere work well- no long intros or breaks- always have the backing track ready to pass along- the song should be well mixed, well played, and well sungHTHNo key changes? Interesting. I guess I can see why. Nothin' too obtrusive, right? The other stuff I knew but not that. I don't do key changes but that's a good thing ta know in case I'd forget myself.Thank you!

[Casey H]

Nov 20, 2008, 11:24pm, squids wrote:Nov 20, 2008, 3:44pm, hurowitz wrote:All good points... Bill, Nita, et al...One thing is you can't always judge by a few rejections. Sometimes it's just the right track at the right time and you need to keep plugging it in all ways (assuming it has no bad boogers)... A few screener returns may or may not mean anything. (Though at some point you're just banging your head against the wall). My guess would be if you create a track as a sound-like, especially if it's a retro thing, that's pretty much the only target for it. It is what it is.Nita, I see you as more of an artist... So I don't think going into the studio to purposely make a track that sounds like some other artist would be necessarily for you. I see a lot of this discussion as for pure songwriters or for singer-songwriters who've decided to heavily target film/TV with a lot of tracks and also do quick-turns like dispatch. CaseyI agree about the right time with the right track but not the artist thing.....I don't do jes singer-songwriter stuff, I do instrumentals as well and most of mine are heavily targeted to film-tv, jes not period stuff. It's jes a matta of taste is all. SquidsyApologies... I forgot you do instrumentals for film/TV... All I have in my head is your lovely voice... Been talking songs here... Although much of the same applies, there is more leeway with instrumentals. I would venture a guess that, although a la's are called for all the time and sound-likes are often needed, mood, tempo, etc. (though always very important) would rise up the chain here.Note that we are splitting hairs... When you ask, "which is most important?", the answer really is, "they all are". It might be better to list things to avoid if writing for film/TV-- I can give you a host of things I would have done differently in my own tunes...Some of my mistakes:* Too specific lyrics* Songs/tracks with influences but not easily reconizable as a sound-like or specific era. * Change-up in the bridge that changes the basic character of the song.* Fade out... not always critical, but given the choice I would have done hard endings.Good points, Vikki.... Consistency is a good thing... One tempo, basically the same musical style throughout, etc.Button endings seem to be preferred to fade-outs. Matto's been busy... or else I'm sure he would chime in... Casey

[Casey H]

Nov 21, 2008, 7:45am, deantaylor wrote:There is one thing I always wonder about lyric specifics. Yes, there are many, many more scenes needing generic songs about love (for example) than there are scenes needing songs about say, baseball ....... but there are also many, many, many more songs written about love ..... so you have much, much, much less competition for the baseball scenes.So sometimes I wonder if writing good specialty songs is a good idea. Not sure.I actually have 2 good specialty songs about baseball that I have been trying to place. No luck yet. Though I have had both forwarded to the music supervisor of an ESPN baseball mini-series and other things. If anyone has any ideas on how to best go about placing specialty songs, I'd appreciate it. I am not sure that libraries are the best way to go about it. I am always on the look out for special calls for music for baseball scenes, but I don't look everywhere.DeanThink about probability.... Nothing wrong with having some specialty songs in the catalog. But by the nature of things there will be more opps for generic than specialty. If you have specialty songs, make them the best they can be at just that. But as you write more for film/TV, consider writing more of what has the best odds of success. JMHO Also... There is a huge difference between a specialty song such as one clearly about baseball and a generic song that has some specific references such as a person or place. The latter can fall into the abyss of non-interest. Casey

[twilsbach]

speaking as an editor who uses production music quite a lot, the key change rule is so that I can edit your track. I would say that its RARE to take a piece of production music and simply lay it into a show from tip to tail. 99.99% of the time you're making it fit a pre-determined length that isn't the length of the song.That means I have to edit content from your song, and a lot of times I want it to sting, so if the key is different at the end than at the beginning, your song is going to be deleted from my timeline, and I'm going to go back and find another song that works.I can't tell you how many times I've cursed composers for the way they ended their track. Nov 20, 2008, 11:30pm, squids wrote:Nov 20, 2008, 6:15pm, hummingbird wrote:here are some additional thoughts from the rally - they apply to instrumentals but I think you can apply them to songs as well....- don't change keys, or tempo- set a mood & stick with it- generic lyrics that create an atmosphere work well- no long intros or breaks- always have the backing track ready to pass along- the song should be well mixed, well played, and well sungHTHNo key changes? Interesting. I guess I can see why. Nothin' too obtrusive, right? The other stuff I knew but not that. I don't do key changes but that's a good thing ta know in case I'd forget myself.Thank you!

[squids]

Nov 21, 2008, 8:33am, twilsbach wrote:speaking as an editor who uses production music quite a lot, the key change rule is so that I can edit your track. I would say that its RARE to take a piece of production music and simply lay it into a show from tip to tail. 99.99% of the time you're making it fit a pre-determined length that isn't the length of the song.That means I have to edit content from your song, and a lot of times I want it to sting, so if the key is different at the end than at the beginning, your song is going to be deleted from my timeline, and I'm going to go back and find another song that works.I can't tell you how many times I've cursed composers for the way they ended their track. Nov 20, 2008, 11:30pm, squids wrote:No key changes? Interesting. I guess I can see why. Nothin' too obtrusive, right? The other stuff I knew but not that. I don't do key changes but that's a good thing ta know in case I'd forget myself.Thank you! Hi Tim!Very sorry about the composers (those jerks! ). I have all my tunes placed in film-tv libes including the singer-songwriter ones (heh Case ) but I didn't particularly pay attention to the endings. Some of them were button; some faded. Plenty of room there to cut anywhere in the song and make it sting. No key changes. I knew they wouldn't use but maybe :30 of them. I figured it'd be the intro or bridge or something where it was more dramatic. Never really thought about the ending. (I'm sorry!! I'm not placed with you but ya know, generically I'm sorry! )did I do wrong?

[Casey H]

Nov 21, 2008, 10:43am, deantaylor wrote:Casey, actually probability says that specialty songs may have a better chance than generic songs. Just depends on the ratio of songs to opps, which I don't think anyone really knows (although maybe a large library may have some statistics). For example, say there is only 1 scene per year for a baseball song, but only 10 baseball songs are available (probability of your song being used is 1 in 10)and there are1000 scenes per year for love songs, but 1 million love songs are written (probability of your song being used is 1 in 1,000)Your probablility is better with the baseball song. Just a rough example, but I would not be surprised if something like this held up in the real world for some novelty song categories.But your main point is well taken, I don't want a catelog full of novelty songs. I want a good number of songs with general lyrics and yes, agreed, you gotta watch refs in all songs.Thanks, Vikki. Yes, I've tried that. I also know that ESPN/ABC televises the Little League World Series and I have a song that would be great for that. How/Who do I contact?Tim, I thought film-tv usually only plays a very short segment of each song, like 10-50 seconds? Making it easy to avoid the key change part? And if the last chorus was lifted with a key change and they want the kick, then they'd just use the last chorus?DeanYou may be right... Certainly when the call for something special comes up, you are playing in a much smaller playing field. Some libraries may prefer to sign the more generic ones for obvious reasons. The thing that finally sank in with me is whatever you do, go all the way in it's direction, so there is no doubt what it is. I mentioned earlier, the easier to put a label on it, the better whether we like that or not... Casey

[deantaylor]

Nov 21, 2008, 2:30pm, hurowitz wrote: The thing that finally sank in with me is whatever you do, go all the way in it's direction, so there is no doubt what it is. I mentioned earlier, the easier to put a label on it, the better whether we like that or not... CaseyGood point!