Where's that confounded bridge??

[matthoggard]

Had to use a Line form zeppelin song for this thread title but it is very relevant.This is for you theorists. Im writing a bridge to a song. DMaj scale for the root and chords.I know that according to "formula" most bridges in popular music are a perfect 4th to the root.Why the hell cant I use a b3rd. Its just the minor parrallel to the major 4th of DMaj.Sounds good on a piano. Works well on guitar. BUT from a chord progression that is in a major key. I dont mind going to a minor chord progression for the bridge. It actually would fit what Im trying to say in the song. Im sure you real composers out there might have some opinions.Chorus progression is CMaj, GMaj, DMaj. trying to use Fmaj, Gmin,BflatMinor then end up on a Dmaj for the verse to start again.Did I make any sense?? IF not Ill try to clarify.

[mojobone]

If it makes your song work the way you want it to, screw the rules.

[suzdoyle]

Hi Matt;I'm a big fan of "practical" theory, rather than tedious snooty hoity toity theory for theory's sake kind of theory. If you look at songs ala Nashville Numbering system (chords as numbers), it makes it easier to evaluate how songs are put together.So first thing I do (for myself and with my students) when looking at song structures, is make a chord map:I think of it numerically for each given key:Chord # 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8Chord Name G Am Bm C D Em F#dim G D Em F#m G A Bm C#dim D F Gm Am Bb C Dm Edim F(Etc. for each key)(You can get my handy dandy "keys and chords at a glance chart for free here:http://www.ehow.com/how_4455650_transpo ... w-key.html )If the song is in a major key, I identify the "bones" of the song (the 1, 4 5 chords, all of which are major) and consider them the main landing spots.Then, I look at the "flesh" (the 2, 3 6 chords, all minor) and see how they soften/ flesh out the song.The me, the essence of the song is often built on the "bones" and the flesh is what soften and deepens it.E.g. OVER THE RAINBOW1. Full chords (verse) = 1 6 3 4 1 | 4 1 2 5 1 |2. Just the bones = 1 4 1 | 4 1 5 1 |"Playing the Bones" (as shown above) is a handy way to fake playing a song when taking requests (uh, oh, I'm revealing all my secrets!!) -- but, as a composer, it's also handy for understanding the major underlying structure of a song -- both traditional structures, and ones that use new twists.----------------Re: keys bridges are in -- here are some examples of songs that don't go to 4 in the bridge (shown in "number/ progressions" format):Here are some examples of songs that DON"T go to the 4 on the chorus or bridge:Sk8er Boi - verse D major, modulates to F (b3 up p Ta DAH) in chorus, then to Dm bridge --Verse: D5 A5 B5 \\ D5 A5 B5 C5(chord # ) 1 5 6 1 5 6 b7 <-- which is the 5 of the next chord (great way to modulate)Chorus: F5 C5 Bb5 A5 F5 || F 5 C5 Bb5 Ab Bb5 <--- key of F(chorus begins on the 1 of F, modulated to from D -- or you could think of it as the b3 of D <---BRIDGE Dm F5 C A5 || Dm F5 C5 Bb5 Ab D5 <--- key of Dm and F(bridge is on the 6 chord relative to the 1 chord of F)Boulevard of Broken Dreams - Starts in Em, modulates to CVerse Em G D A 6 1 5 2 Chorus: C G D A 4 1 5 2 <--- 4 of G, but 6 of EmI GOT A NAME (Jim Croce)Verse: 1 5 6 4 5 1 || 1 5 6 2 5Chorus: 3 4 , 3 6(major) , 4 5 1 SATURDAY IN THE PARK Verse: (2x) Am7 D9 Dm7 C 6 2(major) 2(minor) 1 <--- key of C Bm7 Em7 DMaj9 C D Mod to key of G: 3 6 , 5 4 5 <---- key of G G C G Am7 D7 G 1 4 1 2 5 1 Bridge: 4x Gm7 C <---- I'd call this 2 and 5 in key of F 4x Bbm7 Eb <-- modulate to 2 and 5 of Ab 4x Dm7 G (back to intro) <---- mod to 2 and 5 of C-- woo hoo! Those guys modulate up the wazoo, eh?!!WE ARE THE CHAMPIONSVERSE Dm C, mod to F, ends with D <--- key of Dm/ F, Chorus : G Bm7 Em C D <---- key of GGHOSTBUSTERSVerse C Bb F 1 b7 4Bridge Cm G7 <--- just make the 1 chord minor. Clever, eh? 1m 5CRAZY TRAINIntro: F#m A E <--- keys of F#m/ A 6 1 5Verse: A E D <--- 1 chord in A 1 5 4Bridge: F#m D F#m D <---- 6 chord then 4 in A 6 4 6 4 A E F#m 4 5 6(an example of going somewhere else first, THEN to the 4 chord)THE IMMIGRANT (Led Zepplin):Key of F#m 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 F#m G#dim A Bm C#m D EIntro F#5 A <-- key of F#m Verse E A F#5Bridge A5 B5 C5 <-- modulated to relative major-- this is very Riff drivenSTAR WARSVerse: 1 4 1 4 1 b7 5Bridge: 4/5 5 5/5 b3 5 4/5 5 4m/2 5 <--- to 4 but w/ 5 bassBORN TO BE WILDVerse 1 (forever) then (4x) b3 4 1 Chorus 1 b3 5 1 , 1 b7 , 1 b7 <--- 1 then b3 -- Groovy!PRETTY WOMAN - key of AVerse: 1 6 , 1 6, 4 5 <--- key of ABridge: Dm G7 C 2 5 1 6 <--- in key of C -- or a b3 up from A - tricky ,eh?OPUS ONEVerse C F9 D9 G9 C F#dim Dm7 G9 C 1 4 2 5 1 #4 2 5 (2nd time = 1)Bridge; Eb Cm7 Fm7 Ddim Eb F9 Bb9+ <--- Mod to b3 of C 1 6 2 7 1 2 5 etc <-- in key of EbWALLACE AND GROMIT THEME SONGVerse 1 5 4 5 1 | 1 5 4 5 1 5 1Bridge 4 1 5 1 3(major) 6 2(major) 5- uses 4 for the bridge but does temporary modulations by making the 2 and 3 chords major rather than their usual minor.TEQUILAVerse (8x) 1 5m7 Bridge: (3x) 1dim 1 | 2(major) 5 | <-- 1 diminshed! Tricky, eh!!SPIDERMAN THEME SVerse Cm Fm Cm G7 Cm <---- key of CmBridge Bb Eb G7 Cm , Bb Eb Fm G7<----b7 as first chord SOUL MANVerse E F#m/E E (forever ) Bridge (3x) E D E (single notes A C# E ) B <--- 1 chord- this bridge starts on the one chord, then ends with a bit of a riff segueing to the 5 chord, which then leads you back to the 1 chord at the verseSONG THAT GO FROM TO THE 6 CHORD IN THE BRIDGE OR CHORUS:1. My Immortal (A in verse F#m chorus)2. New York State of Mind (C verse Am chorus)3. Let it Be (F verse, Dm chorus)SONGS THAT GO TO 4 CHORD IN CHORUS1. Mission Impossible (Gm verse, Cm Bridge)2. Love Potion No. 9 (Am verse, Dm Bridge)3. Imagine - G verse, C chorusSONGS THAT STAY ON 1 CHORD IN CHORUS1. Love Song (Sarah Bareilles) - Gm verse, Gm chorus2. Kryptonite (Bm verse & chorus)3. Joy To the World (3 Dog Night/ Hoyt Axton) - 4. I Will Survive - Am verse, chorusAnd finally (sorry, getting carried away! This is FUN!), songs like "If Everyone Cared" by Nickelback, do this:Verse (2x) F#m A E F#m <--- 6 chord in key of APrechorus (2x) A E F# <---- 1 chord Chorus D A E F#m | D A E <--- 4 chordPost chorus (2x) F#m A E F# <---- 6 chordSo even though they go to a 4 chord on the main chorus, they mix it up by starting the verse on the 6 chord (minor), and by going to the 1 chord (relative major) on the pre-chorus, then back to the 6 chord on the post-chorus. Pretty nifty, eh?Anyhoo, I'd suggest getting a fake book (ukulele, guitar, piano) that has words and chords. Write out the chord progressions by number, especially for songs you find interesting, and you'll probably discover some cool ways some songs are put together.Sorry for making this so long! I really enjoy thinking about how songs work.Best regards,Suz,in the key of "Eh?" !!

[matthoggard]

WOW!Suz, your like my college theory teacher (but with a personality) Yeah i use the chord numbering, but i still think in theory. (bad habit from years of school orchestra, band, choir etc.)Your method seems a tad easier. Rather than calculating a key change or transpsoing, Ill try this out.Really Like mojo said it boils down to what I hear and like but I still like to stay within "normal"composition. I do believe that in some instances "formula" should be adhered to if I am trying to pitch a marketable product.Thanks for taking the time to spell that out for me. Im very impressed.Matt.

[mojobone]

I know there are a few decent books on the Nashville number system, but does anyone know some good online resources? I bookmarked your chart Suz, thanks.

[anne]

Suz - your not in the key of "eh". You are in the key of "hot damn! 3 years of theory lessons all summed up in one post" Thanks for that one!

[allends]

Aug 18, 2008, 4:18pm, anne wrote:Suz - your not in the key of "eh". You are in the key of "hot damn! 3 years of theory lessons all summed up in one post" Thanks for that one!Ditto! I bookmarked that one! -Allen

[suzdoyle]

Hey guys 'n' gals; I LOVE being on the forums. I'm learning so much, and it's a blast sharing ideas. I'm working on a new article about the Nashville numbering system that I'll post at eHow.com soon. I went to an amazing sitar/ tabla "informance" this year (combo concert/ educational presentation), in which Indian scales, meters, improv techniques etc. were explained/ demonstrated in details Not that I remember a lot of it (oy! Who the heck can count a song in 15 or 23 beats at a time?!!) -- but I really got how each culture's musical language is so unique, and almost embedded in our DNA from years of exposure to it.So in Western music, 1, 4, 5 is what it's often all about, and what feels comfortable and familiar. In Eastern music, it's a whole different experience -- for example, a typical sitar/ tabla song lasts for 30 or 40 minutes, the first 15 of which is just slowly exploring the scale. Whoo-boy! Talk about patience!So, I think it's wonderful that the world getting smaller -- resulting in lots of merging and melding of different musical styles . . . Perhaps the "formula" aspects of music is the known, to which it is easy to cling as things evolve and progress into new forms and new ways of thinking. And then those new ideas become formula until they're replaced with something else.Fun stuff!Again, I'm deeply enjoying sharing ideas with all of you amazing fellow composers!Suz

[devin]

(*munches popcorn*)

[allends]

Aug 18, 2008, 5:41pm, suzdoyle wrote:I went to an amazing sitar/ tabla "informance" this year (combo concert/ educational presentation), in which Indian scales, meters, improv techniques etc. were explained/ demonstrated in details Not that I remember a lot of it (oy! Who the heck can count a song in 15 or 23 beats at a time?!!) -- but I really got how each culture's musical language is so unique, and almost embedded in our DNA from years of exposure to it.Oh Suz, you're touching me deeply with that one! My sitar playing adventures have planted my heart firmly in that world. Counting cycles of multiples of 7 and 10 are the most common-but-difficult challenges for me but I sure do love it! Ya know, even the Indian equivalent of 4/4 time is way different and it has so many variations and is known by many names! So much fun!Aug 18, 2008, 5:41pm, suzdoyle wrote:So in Western music, 1, 4, 5 is what it's often all about, and what feels comfortable and familiar. In Eastern music, it's a whole different experience -- for example, a typical sitar/ tabla song lasts for 30 or 40 minutes, the first 15 of which is just slowly exploring the scale. Whoo-boy! Talk about patience!Absolutely! Yeah, sure it's patience - you bet! But also remember love: spiritual love. Ya gotta make time for that! But speaking as a sitar player I'll divulge a trade secret: it can take a good 20 minutes or more to perfect your intonation before movin' on. Sitar strings stretch & flex during a performance plus the frets can move on you if they're not tied on tight enough. All these problems can be worked out during the slow "alap" movement. Thanks for pushing my buttons this morning! Cheers,Allen