Where's that confounded bridge??

[stephen]

Sept 13, 2008, 5:49pm, sgs4u wrote:Sept 13, 2008, 5:36pm, bigdaddy123 wrote: do you think the writers of those songs sat around worrying about theory ? probably not, you're right there Quote: It's my humble opinion that the more music theory you learn ,the more your intuitive songwriting powers diminish. You lose the ability to write simplisticly which is what the industry really requires. And I'm not saying that music theory isn't a marvelous creation of God,worthy of study, I just think it should be studied sparingly. using theory sparingly may indeed work well for you... but thinking one part of your knowledge diminishes as one increases, is malarky, hogwash, bullshitethe industry requires many different kinds of things. This guy asked for advice, not opinions that denigrate theory And the two Steve's agree...

[suzdoyle]

I think theory can be helpful or hindering, depending on what kind you're talking about. In college, I remember crossing my eyes at way too much "busy work" kind of theory that didn't seem to have much application to real life. I was much more interested in why the jazz guy in the room next door sounded so cool. I learned far more at that time by talking to working musicians than to educators.IMHO, understanding how songs are put together progression-wise can help one better understand WHY a song sounds or feels effective and also how to better communicate with other musicians.I always ask my students (and myself):1. What key is the song in? (What Scale is it built upon)2. Which of the 7 chords in that key are being used in the song?3. Which chords OUTSIDE that key are being used?4. What progression (order) of chords is being used?If working in a sight-reading oriented piano lesson book, I have the students figure out which parts of the chords are used in any given measure (which melody notes are from the chord), and how the chords change throughout the song.After looking at a song that way, suddenly it is easier to understand. And if someone wants to write a song that feels a certain way, they have tools with which to do so.E.g. the below progressions tend to create certain styles of songs:1950s song -- 1 6 4 5cartoon/ 1920s -- 1 2(major) 6(major) 2 5 (etc.)Celtic/ Scottish/ Pirate -- 1 b7 or 2 1, b7 1 2 (Gilligan's Isle)Classic Rock/ 60s/ 70s -- notes of the blues scale, babyJazz -- 2 5 1, changing m to m9 and voicing chords using 3 7 9, daddy-oNew Age/ Chant -- 1 2/1 Cowboy - add a 6 note to each chord, often 1, 4 5 or 1 2 6 2 5 (all about the 1-5-6-5 bass line)Emo - Pachelbel Canon progressions switching to hard rockBroadway -- Running bass lines as chords change(e.g 1 1/b7 4/6 4minor/b6 bass etc.)Macarena -- 1 chord forever . . .then a quick 5 1Looking at songs this way (from a simpler, Nashville numbering system point of view rather than a Roman numeral system w/ inversions etc.) is a fun starting point for "getting" how different styles of songs work. Obviously it's over simplistic for the advanced composer; but for people exploring new styles of music, i think it's helpful.Just my two cents . . . ,Suz

[matthoggard]

Suz you are way cool!!!!Id love to have you as an instructor.I dont actively study theory anymore. It has been ingrained in me from age 5. I have a great uncle Lara Hoggard. Composer/Conductor. Look him up. Hes worked with some well known world class symphonies.I had no choice but to learn all that "busy work" theory. While i have forgotten way more than I remember. (umm does that make ANY sense?) It is still my nature to tear down music to its basic framework. Suz does this very simply. Ultimately it does come down to what sounds good. But now that I am actively trying to write commercially, I have lost the "ME" cloak and am needing all the help I can get. In my opinion, Ive written the GREATEST songs EVER!! But in reality im just another joe with a little talent who needs some advice form more experienced peers.I dont feel that your comments were denigrating. I appreciate your input.Quote:Emo - Pachelbel Canon progressions switching to hard rockWhat a great analogy Suz!! Made me spit up my coffee!!!M~

[suzdoyle]

Hey Matt;Thanks for the good thoughts. Last year I had enough guitar, bass and singing students to put together a rock band. Their big number at our recital was "Welcome to the Black Parade" by My Chemical Romance -- as Emo as you get. (Although our version was not QUITE as feisty) 'Twas quite a hoot.Here's a fun video all about Pachelbel's Canon in rock music:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM!Suz

[geo]

Aug 17, 2008, 7:02pm, mojobone wrote:If it makes your song work the way you want it to, screw the rules.I second that emotion!!Geo

[geo]

If I ever hit MegaBucks I'm hiring Suz for way too much money to be my music teacher... WOW!!!!Geo

[suzdoyle]

Gawrsh -- thanks, Geo! Of course, we're all teaching each other lots of cool things here in Taxi forum land, which is one of the niftiest things about being here. ,Suz