Chorus Differentiation - tips & tricks

[Casey H]

May 17, 2008, 7:02am, milfus wrote:well as far as im concerened (this said to avoid a huge debate) all a chorus is is basicly "and thats why I say......*insert chorus here*" as far as contenthasn't led me wrong yetVery true, on the lyrics side. I don't see any debate (but around here anything is possible )But, I would venture that more songs get rejected for musical hooks not differentiated enough. Casey

[tedsingingfox]

Read this yesterday when it was new and LOVED your posting this, Casey.But I'm outta time today, so I'll have to add my comments later.This is something I really could stand to work on.Ted

[edteja]

May 17, 2008, 4:33pm, tedsingingfox wrote:This is something I really could stand to work on.TedIt's hard to find much on these board that we all couldn't stand to work on!!! The chorus does seem to be the musical challenge IN TERMS OF GETTING IT PAST THE GATEKEEPERS. I emphasize that because from an artistic point of view, there are plenty enough challenges.

[cameron]

And what about a song that starts with a chorus? That seems to be considered bad form but I can think of 1/2 dozen of the top of my head that do this, including Hound Dog, Mrs. Robinson, Hey Jude, On the Road Again, etc. It seems to me that none of that matters if the song is good, which has more to do with the lyrics and melody, but no doubt it is important that any song needs to have tension and release in the right places. Since the chorus is usually the peak, then yes, you want your verses at the front if you want the song to build slowly. But I see nothing wrong with jumping right in with the hook at the start of the song either.Cameron

[Casey H]

May 18, 2008, 9:34am, cameron wrote:And what about a song that starts with a chorus? That seems to be considered bad form but I can think of 1/2 dozen of the top of my head that do this, including Hound Dog, Mrs. Robinson, Hey Jude, On the Road Again, etc. It seems to me that none of that matters if the song is good, which has more to do with the lyrics and melody, but no doubt it is important that any song needs to have tension and release in the right places. Since the chorus is usually the peak, then yes, you want your verses at the front if you want the song to build slowly. But I see nothing wrong with jumping right in with the hook at the start of the song either.CameronIt just means the chorus better be DAMN good... Then it can be very effective.... "Can't Buy Me Love", "Build Me Up Buttercup", and many others. "Hey Jude" really doesn't have a chorus. Many Beatles songs have no chorus but use ABAB or AABA format. They wrote such great hooks in those sections that it worked great. Unfortunately, today's pop music is not very accepting of non-chorus format songs.I have one song in which I opened with the chorus. Some think it worked well, others not. I wanted to try it to see if my chorus was bold enough to be the opener. Casey

[cameron]

I guess you're right about Hey Jude really having no chorus at all, but I gotta think that adhering to these rules is one of the reasons that a lot of the songs on the country charts sound alike. Unfortunately, you're 100% correct that if you want to sell your song these days you have no choice, especially as an unknown, but that doesn't make it right. Could you imagine Paul McCartney as an unknown songwriter trying to hawk Hey Jude in today's market. He wouldn't stand a chance. It broke all the rules (7+ minutes long too) yet it stayed at #1 for 9 weeks. Sticking to the rules might be a good idea to help a beginning songwriter improve his writing, but a song is either good or it isn't and to hell with the rules. Besides, I like my job at the car wash, lol!

[Casey H]

May 18, 2008, 5:18pm, cameron wrote:I guess you're right about Hey Jude really having no chorus at all, but I gotta think that adhering to these rules is one of the reasons that a lot of the songs on the country charts sound alike. Unfortunately, you're 100% correct that if you want to sell your song these days you have no choice, especially as an unknown, but that doesn't make it right. Could you imagine Paul McCartney as an unknown songwriter trying to hawk Hey Jude in today's market. He wouldn't stand a chance. It broke all the rules (7+ minutes long too) yet it stayed at #1 for 9 weeks. Sticking to the rules might be a good idea to help a beginning songwriter improve his writing, but a song is either good or it isn't and to hell with the rules. Besides, I like my job at the car wash, lol!But remember than chorus differentiation and sectional contrast are the same thing. So songs with no choruses still needed to make sure their sections are differentiated. So, even if you are not concerned with commercial acceptance and want to write catchy songs, these techniques often apply. Billy Joel's "I Love You Just The Way You Are" was a monster hit years ago in AABA format. The B section clearly stands out as different from the verses. There is something to be learned by studying these things. Casey

[milfus]

bah, the differentation is in having a not in depth enough verseits the story telling, chorus should be the punch line, if you tell a joke and the punch line gets figured out in the first two sentences of then next 14 are just painful. What i see most as far as mistakes go is the lack of progression between verses, the story just doesnt move.aye its in the variations, you can do an AAA song with variations and have it float, theres many many examples (see the gambler for a noteworthy one) the structure should support the content, or the content should support the structure, if you dont have the prosody, you should just cut it, re-write or re-structure, or both. If you step outside a songs story and chart it, it will actually show you its own structure and variations, all you have to do is link the two together, yeah its an hours more work thinking, but it could be MONTHS less work fixing.

[Casey H]

May 19, 2008, 1:42am, milfus wrote:bah, the differentiation is in having a not in depth enough verseits the story telling, chorus should be the punch line, if you tell a joke and the punch line gets figured out in the first two sentences of then next 14 are just painful. What i see most as far as mistakes go is the lack of progression between verses, the story just doesn't move.aye its in the variations, you can do an AAA song with variations and have it float, theres many many examples (see the gambler for a noteworthy one) the structure should support the content, or the content should support the structure, if you don't have the prosody, you should just cut it, re-write or re-structure, or both. If you step outside a songs story and chart it, it will actually show you its own structure and variations, all you have to do is link the two together, yeah its an hours more work thinking, but it could be MONTHS less work fixing.Hi MilfusI don't disagree with your points but I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I'm talking (in this thread) about making choruses/sections stand out from each other musically. Lyric writing, though related, is a separate subject.I'm also addressing chorus driven songs because for overwhelming majority of us here, that's what we are working on-- commercially viable product in today's market.Absolutely, some of the best songs in history were AAA, or AABA format. But, if your goal is commercial songs, like it or not, you've got to write what the industry wants even if you don't like what the industry has become. No one forces anyone to write for commercial success as opposed to pure personal satisfaction... often one can do both but sometimes not.Please understand that I am talking to all the people who pitch songs to the industry, want to write hits (or at lease really good songs), are getting rejected because their chorus doesn't stand out musically, and want to improve. Cheers, Casey

[heinsite]

ok Casey--great post, good comments by all. one of my FAVORITE tunes, that i began singing yesterday while mowing the lawn, is the one of the greatest rock and roll tunes ever penned, Pretty Woman, sung by Roy Orbison (duh) and co-written i believe, but i don't pay allot of attention to the writers--hey, that may be my problem!!!!!!! an a-pith-a-ny?anyway, one of the most intricate, hook-i-est (both instrumental and vocal), multi bridged, multi damned near everything tunes ever ever ever written. i once in some thought years back when hearing it in the car tried to count how many "changes" of direction and just "pieces" of the tune that made the entire tune, and hell with verse chorus bridge stuff, and VARIATIONS of them within the tune, i stopped counted i believe at about 6-7 distinct parts to this beautifully written piece. i'll just call them "parts," not being a trained musical genius.so i guess i'm trying to say that it takes an entire package to work, IMHO, and the form it takes sometimes doesn't make a difference, as long as the basic elements are there. now of course, this is from a man who is NOT (yet) a successful song writer, hell taxi won't forward me yet, but i challenge ANYBODY to pick a more interesting tune in the rhelm of rock and roll, old or new, that comes close to Pretty Woman for structural complexity--call it what you will. now count the pieces to that beautifully written puzzle and see how many you guys come up with. sorry to show my age (56).dah dah dah dah dah....great thread here folks--even roy's "growl" is a distinct "piece." man...the best to all,warren