Working with another writer

[linziellen]

Hi,I'm interested in how you guys interact and lay the foundations of a writing relationship, where do you start?How do you choose who you write with? How do you know you've found the right person? What do you look out for?Linzi

[jchitty]

Hey, Lindz...I really enjoy writing with other people. Co-writers are like friends in a way....pick someone you like and someone's who respects you and is reasonable to work with. Although some of the best songs came out of not so good relationships too....one only has to look at the songs of Lennon and McCartney to know this. Ed's got some good points here....it's good to find someone who's stronger in other areas than you....two heads are always better than one sometimes. If you're a better lyricist, look for a good melodist, and vice versa. If you're weak on production, look for someone who can help you with that. As you know, this board is great for collabs because it brings so much talent together. As far as co-writing goes, a lot of people need a lot of creative control, so if you're that type of person, you might want to co-write with a person who's more flexible. And if you're a fly by the seat of your pants type, maybe you need someone who'll take over the reigns a bit more, someone to inject some order into the process.I like to split co-writes 50-50....that way, no one seems to get upset. It's a good idea that if the project costs something, that you pay at least half the costs of course. It's mostly a matter of common sense.....just treating people like you'd want to be treated. I hope if you do find a co-writer, everything works out well for you!

[aimusic]

I usually start by saying "what is your favourite beer?" and if their answer is anything other than "Heineken" it's a no go... I always prefer a 50/50 split (it just means you don't have the hassle of conflict later on when someone thinks they deserve more - I believe without that other persons input - whether it's small or big - the song wouldn't be what it's supposed to be)

[linziellen]

Thank you And what if your co writer doesn't seem as enthusiastic? Can you tell where to draw the line? I'm sure honesty is the best policy but then what do you do with your half written song, move on and find someone else to work with? What if you really want to keep some of their ideas but the two of you just don't make progress as partners!? Am I being picky? Linzi

[devin]

Great post Linzi...If something is starting from just an idea, or from scratch ("hey...waddaya wanna write?"..."I dunno, waddaya YOU wanna write?"..."I asked you first!"....) Then 50/50 is a good idea. You want the other person to be motivated to keep trying. Even if they only donate a killer bridge and the intro, it makes the song stronger (and the song might never have seen daylight without their help).If you bring in a song that's basically done, then you need to talk about how the compensation will work out. Here's a couple of scenarios I keep seeing:Let's say you need something specific (a vocal track, etc). You've written out the words, the melody, and the backing tracks. You can basically: a. offer cash after the track is done, (pay real studio musicians right away for example) b. offer cash "if the song makes any money" at a later date. For example "I'll keep the first $1000 the song makes, you get the next $1000, and then I get everything after that". c. offer to barter "give me a vox, and I'll do the backing tracks for one of your songs"If you need more help than just a track, then you may be looking at splitting the song forever and a day (well, until everyone is dead plus a couple of decades)This happens if they actually helped to create a copyrightable work. Did they contribute a good chunk of the lyrics (besides a couple word suggestions, for example)? Create a vocal melody? A really recognizable chord progression for the music? (<-- this last one is different for some genres, I think? A hired musician in a studio in Nashville cutting a country track will gladly throw some guitar hooks and some lead in for the day rate...but a beat maker working on 50 Cent's latest track is expecting to get paid big dollars for putting out a quality backing track).As for gently getting out of a collaboration that didn't work out, I'm with what folks have already said. I would consider doing this:- communicate honestly. "I don't feel we're taking the song seriously enough at this time. Do you feel we're going to come up with a great product at this pace? Would you like to keep trying for a set amount of time...say from now until the end of the month, and then honestly evaluate if we should continue? I'm OK if you want to give it one more serious try...or we can agree to part ways on it right now...but I really want to keep working on it one way or the other"If you can't get them to agree to either finish it off, or pull your contributions apart, then you're basically stuck. It's a copyrighted work that you both created, and you can't use their stuff without their agreement. P.S. I've been there...and to be honest, when I look at a song that had some "good parts" in it, it wasn't a killer tune overall that was destined for greatness. Some times you have to back away and move on.(Hey, that's a good song idea Linzi! If you use it, I want.....)

[mojobone]

Jun 10, 2008, 5:04pm, devin wrote:Great post Linzi...If something is starting from just an idea, or from scratch ("hey...waddaya wanna write?"..."I dunno, waddaya YOU wanna write?"..."I asked you first!"....) Then 50/50 is a good idea. You want the other person to be motivated to keep trying. Even if they only donate a killer bridge and the intro, it makes the song stronger (and the song might never have seen daylight without their help).If you bring in a song that's basically done, then you need to talk about how the compensation will work out. Here's a couple of scenarios I keep seeing:Let's say you need something specific (a vocal track, etc). You've written out the words, the melody, and the backing tracks. You can basically: a. offer cash after the track is done, (pay real studio musicians right away for example) b. offer cash "if the song makes any money" at a later date. For example "I'll keep the first $1000 the song makes, you get the next $1000, and then I get everything after that". c. offer to barter "give me a vox, and I'll do the backing tracks for one of your songs"If you need more help than just a track, then you may be looking at splitting the song forever and a day (well, until everyone is dead plus a couple of decades)This happens if they actually helped to create a copyrightable work. Did they contribute a good chunk of the lyrics (besides a couple word suggestions, for example)? Create a vocal melody? A really recognizable chord progression for the music? (<-- this last one is different for some genres, I think? A hired musician in a studio in Nashville cutting a country track will gladly throw some guitar hooks and some lead in for the day rate...but a beat maker working on 50 Cent's latest track is expecting to get paid big dollars for putting out a quality backing track).As for gently getting out of a collaboration that didn't work out, I'm with what folks have already said. I would consider doing this:- communicate honestly. "I don't feel we're taking the song seriously enough at this time. Do you feel we're going to come up with a great product at this pace? Would you like to keep trying for a set amount of time...say from now until the end of the month, and then honestly evaluate if we should continue? I'm OK if you want to give it one more serious try...or we can agree to part ways on it right now...but I really want to keep working on it one way or the other"If you can't get them to agree to either finish it off, or pull your contributions apart, then you're basically stuck. It's a copyrighted work that you both created, and you can't use their stuff without their agreement. P.S. I've been there...and to be honest, when I look at a song that had some "good parts" in it, it wasn't a killer tune overall that was destined for greatness. Some times you have to back away and move on.(Hey, that's a good song idea Linzi! If you use it, I want.....) Wow! Great post, great thread! Perceptive and insightful. (is that a sentence?) The Nashville/Hip-Hop dichotomy, especially! [munches popcorn]

[squids]

I dunno, I tend to think along the lines of 'the simpler, the betta'.......work-for-hire or 50/50 cowrite. Tried the whole 'they did lyrics, I did music' approach and while that worked really well on the last album, I wouldn't do it again, mainly cuz my new cowriters and I have a more professional relationship. My past cowriters were good friends and we have a more emotional connection that transcends contracts and such. Not always the best plan for many people; contracts aren't there to make us feel bound, they're there to protect us.An example would be something like this: Somebody needs me to drop some voice stuff on their bed tracks. No production or anything, jes melody lines and backups, etc. Simple! Either they pay me an hourly wage and I sign off on it (i.e., I sign off on a master of my stuff so it's all theirs) or they offer me a 50/50 cowrite. I'd do the whole 'I'll do this for you if you do this for me lata on' but time began to be a factor on my end and I really loathe putting people on hold. So I'm generally up front about it now, either pay-for-play or a cowrite. I hated it at first. I mean, I really like a ton of people on these forums and of course, I'd like them to think well of me and talking about this stuff jes seemed cold-blooded to me but after signing my first contract at 14, I'm kinda over it now. Besides how good is it if I agree to do something and then not be able to follow through because I've had to take other jobs that're paying me cash to keep me going? It's best to be honest not only about what you'll accept for your services but what you're willing to pay for theirs. Gives everyone a chance at the outset to decide if this is something they're interested in with no hurt feelings if it isn't what either of you want. We'd all love to be professional and I think mostly we are but certainly, we take pride in our work and it does hurt a bit at first to be turned down or to find that it isn't working out.So the next thing is scheduling. What kind of time are we talking about? I'm fortunate that my cowriters have been understanding about a sudden change of scheduling in my life (and my classes) and have been very patient and are waiting (even as I take time away from studying to write this! Ack!). I don't know if I could say the same about anyone else. So I'm very careful about who I cowrite with. Things can happen in anyone's life at any time so you definitely want someone who's either really good and you can maybe put up with some impatience issues or they're really great to work with and between the two of you, you can come up with something great together. I try to avoid people with control issues big time, it's jes a pet peeve of mine. I think most of my cowriters know this about me; if they don't, they're about to find out, lol. I love it when people are concerned about quality. I don't love it when being anal interferes with creativity. Each of us has our own lil quirks so it's best to know yours. That way you can be as up front as possible.I believe if you make an agreement with someone to do something and for some reason, it doesn't work out, you both should be allowed to take your tune/lyrics and shop them elsewhere. I mean, what if you agreed to do a cowrite with someone. You come up with lyrics but they've been sitting on them for six months now and you know they're not gonna have time/energy/whatever to finish the job. Is it fair to you to have to let go of that song? Nope. But here again, this is where being careful about who you cowrite with comes in really handy. If you've got a good working relationship, you'll feel more comfortable being able to say "well, look, it's been six months or whatever, nothin's happened. We've talked about this before. I'd like to option out, take my words elsewhere." If they're good joes, they'll let it go and wish you well. And it pays off too. I know of one really great guy who I absolutely adore (he knows who he is) who wrote some great music for some of chits' lyrics. I wanted those lyrics bad, bad, bad and was jes too slow to snag them (he's quicker on the draw than me). But after he produced his shot at it and they watched it try its wings, he graciously let me have a shot at it too, now giving chits a double shot at it, two different slants on the same lyrics. In exchange, I got another cowriter (cuz he da man) and we're both challenging each other to go way outside our usual boundaries. It's costing us time and patience but it's gonna be so worth it in the long run. A good deal, all around, imho. (thanks Steve D!).Anyway, sorry for the long post. Sorry!

[devin]

I like Squids.But besides just my physical affection, what she wrote is good too!I've found that as my writing gets better, so do my collaborators, and so do the relationships. I like how Squids can now say "50/50 or give me cash" (OK, I'm massively simplifying...but I'm at work on lunch, so I don't have too much free time LOL ). I would to respond to Squids, though, that I'm sure it took a lot of trial and error and effort for her to get to that point...it did for me...and I think we all need to go through that as we get better.Basically, let's keep collaborating any way we can, and get better. It would be really nice to be a good enough songwriter (with good enough funds to buy help when you need it)...but if you're not there yet, then keep hooking up with folks to get your stuff to the next level no matter what. The alternative is to stop trying.And Hummingbird has a great idea...professional feedback. I don't know how many times I wanted to take a stubborn co-writer and say "OK, let's take this to good idea music court, and see who's right!".Of course, my attitude at the time wasn't the best...but I DID have the better verse, dangit!!!I think this forum is a great place to ask for advice and opinion...although we're all so busy, the feedback on any given day may be overwhelmingly complete, or totally sparse.We should get treats every time we give someone a good idea (or a much needed reality check).

[squids]

Yeah but when you're working with a lyricist (for example), and they don't wanna do a rewrite......well, who can blame them? If you dint want the song, you wouldn't have asked for it, right? It had appeal already but now you wanna do a major rewrite on it? That doesn't make sense and I could see how a lyricist would be less inclined to wanna do that. On the other hand, I say to my cowriters up front......if I have to change a lil something to make it fit the melody line, is this okay? It's their baby, they don't want someone disfiguring it. Who would? On the other hand, though......singing ain't writin' and there're things you gotta do to make the translation from the paper to the voice.In the end, it's about the work. What sounds best. It's not about countin' sacrfice but what's gonna make it sell (as bird said). And it seems like everyone sacrifices, in the end, to make it betta than it woulda been if you'd done it on your own. If it doesn't sound betta, six months lata when you're over the lil nicks and cuts of collab'ing (heh), then it's clear you need to find another collaborator or jes DIY.P.S. Awww, I like you too Devin, you're sweet. And yes, it took a lot of inner resolve and time to get here to say these things to you, in more ways than one. And you're quite right when you say we all hafta go through it, make our own way and get there in our own time.

[squids]

Hey Cam,I appreciate that. I've been squeaking along with you on your version and it's a lil bit up there but doable. If we can jeeees adjust jes a bit on it, that should do it. Still think you sound like Willie, yay!I like you too. And you wrote a mean lyric fo yo mama. I know she'd be proud. It's lovely.