Working with another writer

[Mark Kaufman]

Jun 9, 2008, 12:07am, aimusic wrote:I usually start by saying "what is your favourite beer?" and if their answer is anything other than "Heineken" it's a no go...Avoid working with Dennis Hopper... I love collaborating, but I NEEDS to feel comfortable first. I think it's important that you also have your own set of rules before you decide to collaborate. Here are a few of mine...-Fun is not an option...if we're going to play, then we must have fun. That's a "non-negotiable" right there. Spare the pain and darkness for your autobiographical movie.-If the partner is uncomfortable with an even split, I'm outta there. Personally, I can't sustain a positive creative mindset while also wolfishly insisting on getting the biggest piece of the carcass.-How do you prefer your skin, thin or thick? I'll take thick juicy skin, thank you very much...that way we won't be walking on eggshells expressing our opinions about the work at hand.-If our relationship goes South, and the song is unfinished, then the song is dead. We take our pieces and walk away. If I really liked what the other did, too bad...I'll just have to do it differently.-We always tell each other what we might be doing with the song, posting it here or there, pitching it to so and so, whatever. It's a partnership, so we need to communicate our moves. And the default mode is Positive and Willing...the answer should usually be Yes unless there is a compelling reason otherwise.-Pick someone you"click" with in some way or another...if you are not comfortable communicating, you will not be comfortable collaborating...and remember: collaborations are forever. Once that piece is finished, it exists, and it will outlive you...are you prepared to spend the rest of your life doing business with your partner?

[squids]

Oh, I don't know. I really don't foresee my songs lasting through this decade, really. Certainly not past my lifetime. I ain't that good. But I could totally see some of my cowriters makin' it to 'classics' status. That could happen!

[linziellen]

Hi folks, this is great - I'm still reading! Thank you for all these wonderful insights, it's all very interesting.

[devin]

Jun 11, 2008, 10:41am, squids wrote:Yeah but when you're working with a lyricist (for example), and they don't wanna do a rewrite......well, who can blame them? If you dint want the song, you wouldn't have asked for it, right? It had appeal already but now you wanna do a major rewrite on it? That doesn't make sense and I could see how a lyricist would be less inclined to wanna do that. I think I really need to mature in this area. I'll read a lyric, and really like parts of it, but secretly want to see changes in other areas.I recently read through a very large catalog of lyrics, and some really got me thinking. But I just couldn't sing the words verbatim...I kept wanting to dial in what I was feeling, and modify some lines to accentuate that. It's all about me. Character flaw? Human nature? Too opinionated?I don't do that to classic songs that have been successful....*sigh*Sincerly, minor, semi-repentant control freak

[squids]

No, no, I do that too. I'll read them and think "yeah, yeah, I'm gettin' that rhythm but for it to work, somethin' gotta be done about those syllables". Then I'll jes ask them, is it okay for me to change this word for another one? Do they have another word that they want to substitute? (gives them some control) And if they're the kind of people I think they are, they'll look at the work overall and make the sacrifice for the sake of a betta product. But it genuinely must make the product betta. It doesn't help to change up the lyrics if all that's gonna happen is the song isn't recognizable. I have a thing about that and I've certainly seen people do that, jes bushwack through a tune until no one including its author would know it from Adam. That's jes sad and a sign that they don't know what they want, if they gotta rip up a lyric line that bad. Jes my .02 on that though. I'm sure others have a different op on it.So secretly, (which isn't much now that I'm postin it), I check out writers. A lot. I'll look for what other cowriters are sayin' about them, beyond jes the fluffy "thank you" stuff. I look at their posts and how they come across. Are they calm? Are they sensible? How much no-nonsense attitude do they represent in their posts? I look for the quality of the words of the lyricists and then the quality of the person who wrote them. Or, in my case when it's a cowriter that wants me to lay down some stuff, I thoroughly check out their music (or I've already been doing that) and decide if it's got the quality I wanna put my name on. All we have is our reps so it's imperative we handle them with care.I know that sounds horrible in a way, that I'm that discriminating. But cowriting can be a completely wonderful experience if you do it right and jes pretty awful if you choose poorly. So I try to find lyricists who are gracious and trusting enough of my work to let me have the reins when it's my turn to put my thing down on it. I've been very fortunate so far that the writers have treated me so well and that we've done some good stuff together, nothing throw-away or lame, a song we can continue to shop until we find a home (some of them have already found homes, right, chits and Bob?). They're good enough they'll find their niche, except for one I mighta blown for chits, which I'm totally gone make up for. Soon. So yeah, your point is absolutely justified. Singing isn't reading and lyrics don't always translate to a smoothly sung line. I think chits could have a few remarks here that might enlighten folks about it, as a lyricist (and singer too!). Bob might too, as well as Bill, who let me run wild with one of his songs, as did bird. Talk about trust. Phew! They're a rock in a hard place. Again, though, I have to justify their trust every single time. So anyway, (sorry, long post again but your posts are temptingly interesting!) you da man!

[squids]

Well, I can see that. You've got a confrontational style and that's an interesting point, isn't it? Each of us has a different style and that's a part of the equation as well. If someone's loathe to be confrontational in order to work with you, it'll make them miserable and you too. Right?I dislike conflict in the rewriting part because the creative process to me is already full of conflict.....within ourselves, out into the world using our hands, our software, etc. Why clutter it with more verbal confrontation? But I can see how that would work for lots.Interesting that we're collab'ing on something, lol. We don't email much which I know means you're really reining it in for me. I appreciate that a lot. Jes waitin' on either you or Bill to tell me whazzup.

[jchitty]

I'm gonna bounce off Squiddy's points a bit. BTW, I owe folks here some e-mails and PMs, and I will answer them ASAP...I had a doc's appointment today, and things have been crazy on my end....everything turned out fine though. One thing some people don't realize...it's EXTREMELY hard to write lyrics. Some folks think they can just say to a lyricist, 'rewrite the whole thing' and that a lyricist should deliver. Lyricists aren't being belligerent when they don't want to do re-writes....many times lyrics get set in stone in their heads, and it's almost impossible to do re-writes in this case....we simply can't think of anything to write again. It may have taken us months to sit on the lyrics that we sent to you.If someone is tough about lyric writing, my guess is they don't write a lot of themselves 'coz they'd know it's like squeezing blood out of a turnip sometimes....when you write lyrics, it's like bloodletting on paper sometimes.If someone is insistent on me rewriting lyrics, I try my best to hone some new lines again, but I am not writing the whole song again. I tell the person if they want to re-write the lyrics themselves, then have at it.It's not an ego thing with me....it's a time thing....I am so busy doing my other projects that I don't have lots of time to spend redoing an old one.I've been blessed with great co-writers such as Squids and others who've understood this thank the Lord. I don't mind a few rewrites of a word or two there, but if you want the whole song rewritten, well, hehe....then just go write another song yourself.

[Mark Kaufman]

I never ever ever ever ever wanted to work with lyricists in the way it seems to go. I used to look for someone who could write lyrics to my music and melody. Not many lyricists can do that, nor are most even willing to try...they feel they are being too constricted. And I used to think I'd never turn the tables and try to make music fit to someone's words.But now, I find the challenge exhilarating, and I've been able to make it work. I've worked on half a dozen songs by lyricists in the past few months, and I ended up changing nothing. Unfortunately, that's making me a little too popular with lyricists now... But in general, I'm with Steve. They must be willing to bend...and so far, every lyricist I've worked with has demonstrated that willingness...which makes me more determined to make their vision work...

[jchitty]

Jun 12, 2008, 11:56am, sgs4u wrote:I look for someone that isn't scared to argue, and is also willing to lose an argument, to further the relationship and or song. That's how I am. I'm done working with writers who have resistance to changing lyrics. Sometimes people send me lyrics, and I work on creating a song with them. If they are resistant to changing lyrics, there is NO point to continuing. But I'm getting to be a hard-ass about it, 'cause I only have so much time, and nothing is worth doing to me, unless I enjoy the relationship, as much as the song. Lyrics, are NOT songs. They never will be, until someone cooperates to make a song out of it. I don't mind some conflict provided it's useful to the songwriting process. McCartney and Lennon were constantly in conflict but they still wrote great songs because one balanced the strengths and weakness of the other. But there comes a point when conflict becomes useless and doesn't add to the process anymore, it just gums up the works. When it just becomes pointless wheel spinning and nothing is getting done, it's time to call it quits.

[jchitty]

Sometimes, when I post lyrics, people PM me behind the scenes, and they want the lyrics to the song. They want to create a melody for it. I'm assuming they like the song enough not to make me want to change it, otherwise, why did they PM me? I'll change a bit of it for them, but because of the time element, I ain't rewriting a whole song....if you want the lyrics, you take 'em as is, or you're welcome to do rewrites yourselves.Once again, it's not about ego with me...it's about it being so time consuming....it's A LOT of work to write a song, but it's even more work to rewrite whole songs. I've had some people want my lyrics and then ask me to rewrite the whole dang song. (not our dear Steve of course, hehe)To which I'll say, 'well, you really didn't want my lyrics, didya?" I'm extremely flexible with folks though...I'm a fly by the seat of my pants type, and once you get my lyrics, I just tell you to run with it. Just don't bug me with too many rewrites. My count of songs right now is approaching 150 in three years time(I average a song a week)....here's what I think, write the song, and do the best you can with it....remain prolific and strive for quality, but don't get bogged down in quagmires and nitpickin' 'coz you'll shoot yourself in the foot eventually.